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duracell69

legality of Sensual / Tantric Massage

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hope someone can help or point me in the right direcation:

does anyone know the legal status / risk of an independant lady operating on her own, from her own premises offering sensual /naturist / tantric massage, and also whether the status / risk is consistant across all of the UK?

many thanks to all who help.

(ps I've done a quick search but all I found related to "massage parlours" - not the same as this case.

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does anyone know the legal status / risk of an independant lady operating on her own, from her own premises offering sensual /naturist / tantric massage, and also whether the status / risk is consistant across all of the UK?

The supply of sexual services for gain is not illegal, currently this applies throught the entire of the UK.

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Hi. Quick question. I'm an erotic/tantric masseuse operating independent but have enough business to hire a few girls soon (no FS, no BJ's but HR yes). Can I get arrested for running a small studio with lets say 7 girls (one girl per day)? I'm sorry I've only been in this country for 6 months (I used to have my massage studio in Sydney before) and I'm not familiar with the UK laws. I've read that prostitution is ilegal in the UK but I see escort agencies advertising everywere so what's the deal?????? :(

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

thanx.

:D:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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Hi. Quick question. I'm an erotic/tantric masseuse operating independent but have enough business to hire a few girls soon (no FS, no BJ's but HR yes). Can I get arrested for running a small studio with lets say 7 girls (one girl per day)? I'm sorry I've only been in this country for 6 months (I used to have my massage studio in Sydney before) and I'm not familiar with the UK laws. I've read that prostitution is ilegal in the UK but I see escort agencies advertising everywere so what's the deal?????? :(

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

thanx.

:D:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Prostitution is legal, brothels are illegal, and so is controlling prostitution for gain.

HR, that is a sexual service, so it is prostitution.

Although only one woman is working at a time in the studio, it is still classed as a brothel and would thus be illegal.

You could also be caught under controlling prostitution for gain, i.e. taking bookings and being paid. Agencies (outcall) probably get away with controlling prostitution for gain, because of proving what controlling means. There has been many a discussion of the meaning of controlling on here. Controlling has a low threshold, i.e taking the bookings and setting the price and services could be conceived of controlling. Having said that agencies have been taken to court on this charge and their jury has thrown it out.

You also have to be wary of the proceeds of crime. i.e all your earnings whilst in business will be confiscated. Much of this money goes to the police and the Criminal Prosecution Service, giving the incentive to prosecute you.

Where do you work, some police agencies are more tolerant of sex work than others. It does not follow that the same police region operates the same way through the whole area. Thames Valley is such a region. Milton Keynes tolerates brothels, while most of the rest of Thames Valley, especially Oxford will close them down and prosecute.

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Hi. Quick question. I'm an erotic/tantric masseuse operating independent but have enough business to hire a few girls soon (no FS, no BJ's but HR yes). Can I get arrested for running a small studio with lets say 7 girls (one girl per day)? I'm sorry I've only been in this country for 6 months (I used to have my massage studio in Sydney before) and I'm not familiar with the UK laws. I've read that prostitution is ilegal in the UK but I see escort agencies advertising everywere so what's the deal?????? :(

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

thanx.

:D:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Why do so many people think selling or paying for sex is illegal in this country. It isn't yet I've seen this commented upon on a couple of regional forums, and quite a few clients believe this too. It's only some conditions surrounding the whole thing that can make it become illegal. Soliciting, Kerb-crawling and Control for Gain being a few.

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Hi. Quick question. I'm an erotic/tantric masseuse operating independent but have enough business to hire a few girls soon (no FS, no BJ's but HR yes). Can I get arrested for running a small studio with lets say 7 girls (one girl per day)? I'm sorry I've only been in this country for 6 months (I used to have my massage studio in Sydney before) and I'm not familiar with the UK laws. I've read that prostitution is ilegal in the UK but I see escort agencies advertising everywere so what's the deal?????? :(

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

thanx.

:D:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Hi Sophie

If you stick to hr you will not have any problems at all legally especially if you stick to 1 or 2 girls.

Classic example is edgware health and beauty who have 4 girls on each day but stick to hr only and don't have problems

Just stick to sensible hours

Jimbobb

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Hi Sophie

If you stick to hr you will not have any problems at all legally especially if you stick to 1 or 2 girls.

Classic example is edgware health and beauty who have 4 girls on each day but stick to hr only and don't have problems

Just stick to sensible hours

Jimbobb

This is wrong.

Elrond's advice is correct.

HR (ie Hand Relief) constitutes a "sexual" service - section 78 Sexual Offences Act 2003.

If the girls are providing sexual services then they are prostitutes - section 51(2).

The premises will be treated as a brothel, and the OP would be "keeping a brothel" - section 33A SOA 1956. Maximum penalty - 7 years.

Claire Finch may have been found not guilty in Luton Crown Court but it doesn't mean that similar defendants with a different jury, different judge and different court will also be found not guilty.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1269861/Massage-parlour-boss-Claire-Finch-acquitted-running-village-brothel.html

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Hm..Interesting. For some weird reason"Tantric massage" escapes the law and while it has a HR at the end for some reason it's not considered a sexual activity. I know many tantra places in posh places fully staffed al though center London that have been operating for many years. They have big websites and no qualms regarding advertising. Why is a sensual massage considered sexual activity and a tantric massage not? I think it's funny.

(And no, I'm not "Sophie")

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Anyway..if "Silverado" is right I might be moving and opening my place somewhere else (like Spain for ex). were the laws are very relaxed concerning this matters). I'm definately not risking jail :blink: :blink: :blink:

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For some weird reason"Tantric massage" escapes the law and while it has a HR at the end for some reason it's not considered a sexual activity. I know many tantra places in posh places fully staffed al though center London that have been operating for many years. They have big websites and no qualms regarding advertising. Why is a sensual massage considered sexual activity and a tantric massage not? I think it's funny.

As far as I am concerned hand relief is a "sexual" act, whether tantric or not. The Sexual Offences Act makes no distinction between sensual and tantric massage.

Have a look at section 78:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/78

The section uses the word "touching".

I have no doubts that hand relief (no matter what people call it) is a sexual act within the meaning of section 78.

Similar places operate quite openly for many reasons. People don't complain or are unaware that technically they're illegal; the police aren't bothered, and so they can continue to operate.

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the key to not getting done is to not annoy the neighbours, which should be a consideration when selecting premesis.

also, make sure your operation is squeaky clean. make sure your girls are in this country legally and are entitled to work (and you!).Keep photocopies of their documents - that is a legal requirement. Also make sure you and your staff are registered with the inland revenue - a joint revenue/immigration/vice squad raid would not be good. check out the VAT regs and register if you need to.

and make sure no illegal activity takes place in your place. The Police will go mad if they find drugs there so you need to make sure no girl or client has any illgal drugs, even dope.

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Yeah right coventrypunter what about the tons of asian massage places all around London??? I'm sure all those women are all here ilegal. They don't get raided.

Jesus christ! I thought I was in Europe!!!! This feels like the US!

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

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A couple of Asian massage places I used semi-regularly were closed down. One in Basingstoke, one in Portsmouth. There was another closed down in Basingstoke a few years ago.

There are other similar establishments in those towns still operating.

I don't know why these places were chosen, but I'm just saying they don't escape police attention.

I think its a crazy situation we have here.

Congratulations on your success, btw.

Mike

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Yeah right coventrypunter what about the tons of asian massage places all around London??? I'm sure all those women are all here ilegal. They don't get raided.

Jesus christ! I thought I was in Europe!!!! This feels like the US!

Hold your horses, Lady!

Neither England&Wales nor Scotland are anything like the US! One provider to one punter in premises used by no other provider is 100% legal here.

Our problem (more your problem, sadly) is two-fold:

a) What constitutes a "brothel" is decided by a line of common law decisions leading from Winter v Woolfe ][1931] 1 KB 549. The law's view of what constitutes a brothel has little or no conection with the view of the man (or woman, or trans-sexual) in today's street.

B) POCA, which disgracefully distorts police priorities.

Just as the USA pushed the recent, somewhat one-sided, extradition treaty as being designed to swiftly deal with 9/11 terrorism, and has since found it useful for hackers and swindlers, the (then) UK government put POCA through the legislature to deprive the "Mr Bigs" of organised crime and drug smuggling of their ill gotten gains, but has used it joyfully to bankrupt ladies whose limited "brothel keeping" was prosecuted, most frequently for reasons of local (and dirty) politics.

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HR is not a sexual service as defined by the Crown Prosecution Service.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/prostitution_and_exploitation_of_prostitution/

Paying for sexual services

With effect from 1 April 2010, section 53A of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, as inserted by section 14 of the Policing and Crime Act 2009, creates a new offence of paying for the sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force etc.

Section 53A provides:

(1) A person (A) commits an offence if:

(a) A makes or promises payment for the sexual services of a prostitute (B),

(B) A third person © has engaged in exploitative conduct of a kind likely to induce or encourage B to provide the sexual offences for which A has made or promised payment, and

© C engaged in that conduct for or in the expectation of gain for C or another person (apart from A or B).

(2) The following are irrelevant:

(a) Where in the world the sexual services are to be provided and whether those services are provided,

(B) Whether A is, or ought to be, aware that C has engaged in exploitative conduct.

(3) C engages in exploitative conduct if:

(a) C uses force, threats (whether or not relating to violence) or any other form of coercion, or

(B) C practices any form of deception

The offence is one of strict liability. This means that it is irrelevant whether A is, or ought to be, aware that B is subject to exploitative conduct by C.

"Sexual services" is given the same meaning as section 4(4) of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, if the service provided involved penetration of B's anus or vagina, penetration of B's mouth with a person's penis, penetration of a person's anus or vagina with a part of B's body or with anything else, or penetration of a person's mouth with B's penis.

"Prostitute" is defined in section 54(2) of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 as:

"A person who, on at least one occasion and whether or not compelled to do so, offers or provides sexual services to another person in return for payment or a promise of payment to that person or a third person."

"Exploitative conduct" is conduct which involves the use of force; threats (whether or not relating to violence); any other form of coercion; or deception. Force should be given its ordinary meaning and would involve physical violence against B.

"Gain" means any financial advantage, including the discharge of an obligation to pay or the provision of goods and services (including sexual services) gratuitously or at a discount; or the goodwill of any person which is or appears likely, in time, to bring financial advantage.

A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

Edited by AA5B

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The "Sexual Offences Act 2003" is not the Harriet Law. It cover Brothel keeping and so on - follow the link I provided.

"Sexual services" is given the same meaning as section 4(4) of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, if the service provided involved penetration of B's anus or vagina, penetration of B's mouth with a person's penis, penetration of a person's anus or vagina with a part of B's body or with anything else, or penetration of a person's mouth with B's penis."

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HR is not a sexual service as defined by the Crown Prosecution Service.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/prostitution_and_exploitation_of_prostitution/

No, I don't think that they are saying that at all.

Section 78 SOA 2003 states that:

For the purposes of this Part (except section 71), penetration, touching or any other activity is sexual if a reasonable person would consider that—

(a)whatever its circumstances or any person’s purpose in relation to it, it is because of its nature sexual, or.

(b)because of its nature it may be sexual and because of its circumstances or the purpose of any person in relation to it (or both) it is sexual.

I've no doubt that HR is a "sexual service"

The CPS say:

"Sexual services" is given the same meaning as section 4(4) of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, if the service provided involved penetration of B's anus or vagina, penetration of B's mouth with a person's penis, penetration of a person's anus or vagina with a part of B's body or with anything else, or penetration of a person's mouth with B's penis.

The Sexual Offences Act 2003 says no such thing.

Section 4(4)specifically relates to section 4 only (Causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/4

All section 4(4) says is that if you cause a person to engage in sexual activity without consent and that sexual activity involves penetration then the maximum penalty is life imprisonment.

Section 4(4) has no relevance to the new section 53 offence ( Paying for the sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force) and neither has it any relevance to HR/Happy Endings.

Section 4(4) relates to penetration and solely in relation to the specified offence.

I said at the time that the person at the CPS who hastily drafted this wording in time for 1 April 2010 got it wrong, and I remain of the same view now.

I believe that the person who prepared the guidance notes knew that there was a definition of sexual in the Act but wrongly referred to section 4(4) rather than section 78.

The wording caused much confusion last year with some people wrongly reading it as saying that if a punter was convicted of the new section 53 offence and penetration was involved then the maximum penalty was life imprisonment. That is clearly incorrect. Section 53 is a summary offence only. The maximum penalty is a Level 4 fine (currently £1,000).

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What if the HR is from the client and there is no penetration involved?

Then what about Bukkake or facials? No penetration and the client could be doing the hand work himself.....

If they are not sexual services, I don't know what is!

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The wording caused much confusion last year with some people wrongly reading it as saying that if a punter was convicted of the new section 53 offence and penetration was involved then the maximum penalty was life imprisonment. That is clearly incorrect. Section 53 is a summary offence only. The maximum penalty is a Level 4 fine (currently £1,000).

My mistake. Level 3 fine.

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What if the HR is from the client and there is no penetration involved?

Then what about Bukkake or facials? No penetration and the client could be doing the hand work himself.....

If they are not sexual services, I don't know what is!

I've no doubt that these are "Sexual" within the meaning of "any other activity" in section 78 SOA 2003.

If you and I believe them to be sexual services then I think that there's a very high probability that a bench of magistrates or a jury would be of the same opinion.

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I've never done jury service. When I do hopefully I'll get a nice juicy case involving a Bukkake session. Or not, probably.

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