Koos

Is Hiv A Risk?

59 posts in this topic

Guys

I know this forum is about sensual massage but I ask for a little leeway to talk about a matter that has recently begun to concern me.

Like many guys here, I have frequented a number of Chinese massage shops over the years, mainly in London and maybe 20-odd in total involving some 50-odd girls most of whom are one-offs with only a few regulars, past and present. On this forum I sense there are three broad groups of punter: guys who want a massage with relief and some groping, guys who want to see how far they can go with a girl and those, like me, who fall into the former category but have once or twice allowed the heat of the moment to move me into territory that is off this forum.

I admit to having unprotected sex with two Chinese massage girls both of whom are mentioned on this and other forums and one of whom has other postings about unprotected sex. Some of these postings are from what I can only describe as sex tourists who come to London on one-off business trips and get home and simply boast of their conquests (God knows how often they do this). At the time of my pleasures I thought that it was only me she liked and therefore at little risk. But having read more widely in the last few days I see that actually a number of punters have been in the same position as me - full unprotected sex on the massage table, some unplanned like me, some as a result of a strategy targetted at girls who do. I have also received oral relief on the table (twice)and in one of my recent postings I said that I suspected that the girl I saw that day had just finished oral with the guy before me (or she uses cum flavoured mouth wash).

At no time did either of us speak about the risk of disease nor did we speak about birth control. The girl did not ask if I was disease free and I did not ask her. Nothing was said then and nothing has been said since.

Now, I know that I am not the only one in this position. I know from some PMs that some guys carry condoms at all times but I also know that others don't. So, my reason for posting, apart from admitting my stupidity, is to ask:

- do you guys share my concerns or am I getting myself in a sweat over nothing

- how do other guys feel that have got themselves into a similar position to me

- do you guys have yourselves tested periodically

- do you ask the girl if she gets herself tested (not that you will necessarily get a straight answer when there is £60+ in extras in the offerring)

- should we create an awareness of the girls that are at risk - do we have some moral obligation in this regard

- how much more goes on out there that does not get written about?

And you may call be stupid and I will not argue. But telling Mrs K that I have had an erotic massage is one thing for which I will get killed, passing on a disease could get her killed and that is not funny and that is why I will never allow the same thing to happen again and also why I have written this posting.

I respect those guys who say that what they sometimes get offerred is way beyond what they want and I respect their control. That is me 99% of the time and will be 100% from now on: massage, grope, and a wank - just hope that I have not blown it already.

I know that I will receive bad publicity for my views on some of these Chinese massage shops but I have been to walk-ups in my life, Indies and had outcalls to hotels and I have to say that protection and other health conscious measures have always been put in place at her insistence and so I do not have the same concerns in these cases.

Thanks for indulging me.

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Guys

I know this forum is about sensual massage but I ask for a little leeway to talk about a matter that has recently begun to concern me.

Like many guys here, I have frequented a number of Chinese massage shops over the years, mainly in London and maybe 20-odd in total involving some 50-odd girls most of whom are one-offs with only a few regulars, past and present. On this forum I sense there are three broad groups of punter: guys who want a massage with relief and some groping, guys who want to see how far they can go with a girl and those, like me, who fall into the former category but have once or twice allowed the heat of the moment to move me into territory that is off this forum.

I admit to having unprotected sex with two Chinese massage girls both of whom are mentioned on this and other forums and one of whom has other postings about unprotected sex. Some of these postings are from what I can only describe as sex tourists who come to London on one-off business trips and get home and simply boast of their conquests (God knows how often they do this). At the time of my pleasures I thought that it was only me she liked and therefore at little risk. But having read more widely in the last few days I see that actually a number of punters have been in the same position as me - full unprotected sex on the massage table, some unplanned like me, some as a result of a strategy targetted at girls who do. I have also received oral relief on the table (twice)and in one of my recent postings I said that I suspected that the girl I saw that day had just finished oral with the guy before me (or she uses cum flavoured mouth wash).

At no time did either of us speak about the risk of disease nor did we speak about birth control. The girl did not ask if I was disease free and I did not ask her. Nothing was said then and nothing has been said since.

Now, I know that I am not the only one in this position. I know from some PMs that some guys carry condoms at all times but I also know that others don't. So, my reason for posting, apart from admitting my stupidity, is to ask:

- do you guys share my concerns or am I getting myself in a sweat over nothing

- how do other guys feel that have got themselves into a similar position to me

- do you guys have yourselves tested periodically

- do you ask the girl if she gets herself tested (not that you will necessarily get a straight answer when there is £60+ in extras in the offerring)

- should we create an awareness of the girls that are at risk - do we have some moral obligation in this regard

- how much more goes on out there that does not get written about?

And you may call be stupid and I will not argue. But telling Mrs K that I have had an erotic massage is one thing for which I will get killed, passing on a disease could get her killed and that is not funny and that is why I will never allow the same thing to happen again and also why I have written this posting.

I respect those guys who say that what they sometimes get offerred is way beyond what they want and I respect their control. That is me 99% of the time and will be 100% from now on: massage, grope, and a wank - just hope that I have not blown it already.

I know that I will receive bad publicity for my views on some of these Chinese massage shops but I have been to walk-ups in my life, Indies and had outcalls to hotels and I have to say that protection and other health conscious measures have always been put in place at her insistence and so I do not have the same concerns in these cases.

Thanks for indulging me.

Have you been tested since these experiences?

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Is this for real? I'm just not sure I believe this, because the answers are so glaringly obvious.

The answers to your question are:

Yes (and no, you're not getting yourself in a sweat over nothing)

Not applicable

Yes (but FFS I've never ever had unprotected sex with a sex worker)

No - not relevant in a sensual massage situation because I restrict myself to safe practices, only ever accepted HR. If I visit a parlour or indepdendent in Manchester I am certain the girls I choose are tested regularly.

Yes - but you'd have to be bloody certain before making accusations like that

Not much, I'd hope, but maybe I'm being naive. Not heard of similar accusations in my neck of the woods (i.e. Greater Manchester)

Get yourself tested immediately and surely you have had not had unprotected sex with your wife since? Never mind HIV, what about everything else?

Lefty

Now, I know that I am not the only one in this position. I know from some PMs that some guys carry condoms at all times but I also know that others don't. So, my reason for posting, apart from admitting my stupidity, is to ask:

- do you guys share my concerns or am I getting myself in a sweat over nothing.

- how do other guys feel that have got themselves into a similar position to me

- do you guys have yourselves tested periodically

- do you ask the girl if she gets herself tested (not that you will necessarily get a straight answer when there is £60+ in extras in the offerring)

- should we create an awareness of the girls that are at risk - do we have some moral obligation in this regard

- how much more goes on out there that does not get written about?

Thanks for indulging me.

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Common sense dictates that an HIV test is warranted and that in the future Koos needs to think first with his head as opposed to using his brains down below.

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Unprotected sex with ANYONE puts you at risk of STDs, massuese/WG or not. You need to be tested and for HIV the most reliable test is one taken 3 months after 'exposure'.

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This thread has been moved from the Sensual Massage forum for obvious reasons.

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Yes, sorry Strawberry, I should not have restricted my response to include only WGs etc because, as you say, the risk is there with anyone.

Lefty

Unprotected sex with ANYONE puts you at risk of STDs, massuese/WG or not. You need to be tested and for HIV the most reliable test is one taken 3 months after 'exposure'.

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are you aware of PEPs? Post exposure prophylactics to give them their full name. there is more information here : http://www.pep.chapsonline.org.uk/pep_basics.htm

you can get them from your gp or from a sexual health clinic. you need to start taking them within 72 hours of having had unprotected sex and must take a course of them for a month. they are powerful drugs which can have side affects but research shows they do help prevent infection with hiv.

worth at least thinking about/discussing with a health professional?

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Jeez Koos. You are married, still have sex (I assume unprotected) with your wife and have unprotected sex with other women. Are you mad ?

- do you guys share my concerns or am I getting myself in a sweat over nothing

I am concerned you think the right approach is to ask what to do on a forum. Go and get yourself tested. NOW. It's unlikely you've caught HIV, but there's loads of other nasties out there.

- how do other guys feel that have got themselves into a similar position to me

I don't know as I just wouldn't put myself in your situation. I found out once that a girl I had seen had had a previous life as a bareback supplier and even though the sex we had was protected, I still went and got tested straight away!!

- do you guys have yourselves tested periodically

Yep, every 3 to 6 months. Tell the GUM clinic what you do and they'll give you Hep B inoculations as well. You know it makes sense.

- do you ask the girl if she gets herself tested (not that you will necessarily get a straight answer when there is £60+ in extras in the offerring)

Why bother? If she says yes, can you really afford to trust her? And anyway, her last test is only good for the period between the test and her next unprotected experience.

- should we create an awareness of the girls that are at risk - do we have some moral obligation in this regard

Difficult one. I personally am against barebacking, especially in the world of paid sex. I always check if an ** girl offers BB and pass if she does. So I like to know. However, it's a free country and no-one should be ostracized for exercising their rights imho. Personally, it's best to simply take responsibility for your own health and practice safe sex when with someone who isn't a monogamous long term partner. Outraged threads on message boards probably help no-one in the long run. Anyway, we all practice risk assessment in this game. Loads of us go for OWO and it's certainly not risk free (what is ?). However, for many of us the risk is sufficiently low that we partake. BB vaginal sex though - that's past my limit of risk. YMMV.

- how much more goes on out there that does not get written about?

LOADS ! As you have found out, you are very unlikely to be a WGs only customer who gets BB ("because she likes you and knows you are clean !!!!!!").

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completely agree, one of the reasons that I use a WG is that I can rely on the fact that she wont have had unprotected sex. Behaviour like this just puts everyone at risk & has no place in responsible punting or service provision.

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Am amazed to read this account and of the incredibly irresponsible, careless and dangerous behaviour from both parties involved !!

Edited by BillGoldberg

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I think this thread should have stayed on the Sensual Massage Board *. By far the majority of the full service seekers here rely on the fact that the ladies they visit do not take risks with their bodies, as their working reputations and concern for their own health would not allow them to.

This thread has lost it's value in the full service section. To quote the OP "At the time of my pleasures I thought that it was only me she liked and therefore at little risk." Some of the guys in the massage section need a reality check reading tales like this, and perhaps questioning themselves to who was leading who with the extra services they tempted the lady into offering.

It's a firm belief of mine that ladies who've never offered full service, will dally far closer to the line than those who've crossed it. How aware of the health risks involved with multiple unknown partners are these ladies, when many don't even see themselves as sex workers or prostitutes.

The ladies in the full service section have reputations to loose, with all that's involved building reputations and websites. Most ladies in the sensual massage section have only blurred names associated with deeds someone once got them to do (YMMV) in various massage places around the UK.

* I understand why the thread was moved, due to the reference of known masseuses offering full service, which makes them beyond the realm of the massage section. I don't know who they are tho.

Edited by Lilly B

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who would be insane enough to have unprotected sex with an escort?

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Guys

I know this forum is about sensual massage but I ask for a little leeway to talk about a matter that has recently begun to concern me.

Like many guys here, I have frequented a number of Chinese massage shops over the years, mainly in London and maybe 20-odd in total involving some 50-odd girls most of whom are one-offs with only a few regulars, past and present. On this forum I sense there are three broad groups of punter: guys who want a massage with relief and some groping, guys who want to see how far they can go with a girl and those, like me, who fall into the former category but have once or twice allowed the heat of the moment to move me into territory that is off this forum.

I admit to having unprotected sex with two Chinese massage girls both of whom are mentioned on this and other forums and one of whom has other postings about unprotected sex. Some of these postings are from what I can only describe as sex tourists who come to London on one-off business trips and get home and simply boast of their conquests (God knows how often they do this). At the time of my pleasures I thought that it was only me she liked and therefore at little risk. But having read more widely in the last few days I see that actually a number of punters have been in the same position as me - full unprotected sex on the massage table, some unplanned like me, some as a result of a strategy targetted at girls who do. I have also received oral relief on the table (twice)and in one of my recent postings I said that I suspected that the girl I saw that day had just finished oral with the guy before me (or she uses cum flavoured mouth wash).

At no time did either of us speak about the risk of disease nor did we speak about birth control. The girl did not ask if I was disease free and I did not ask her. Nothing was said then and nothing has been said since.

Now, I know that I am not the only one in this position. I know from some PMs that some guys carry condoms at all times but I also know that others don't. So, my reason for posting, apart from admitting my stupidity, is to ask:

- do you guys share my concerns or am I getting myself in a sweat over nothing

- how do other guys feel that have got themselves into a similar position to me

- do you guys have yourselves tested periodically

- do you ask the girl if she gets herself tested (not that you will necessarily get a straight answer when there is £60+ in extras in the offerring)

- should we create an awareness of the girls that are at risk - do we have some moral obligation in this regard

- how much more goes on out there that does not get written about?

And you may call be stupid and I will not argue. But telling Mrs K that I have had an erotic massage is one thing for which I will get killed, passing on a disease could get her killed and that is not funny and that is why I will never allow the same thing to happen again and also why I have written this posting.

I respect those guys who say that what they sometimes get offerred is way beyond what they want and I respect their control. That is me 99% of the time and will be 100% from now on: massage, grope, and a wank - just hope that I have not blown it already.

I know that I will receive bad publicity for my views on some of these Chinese massage shops but I have been to walk-ups in my life, Indies and had outcalls to hotels and I have to say that protection and other health conscious measures have always been put in place at her insistence and so I do not have the same concerns in these cases.

Thanks for indulging me.

I have to 100% agree you Koos, everything you state is and is recurrently happening, i think the sensual massage scene espically in the Chinese shops has dramatically changed and FS is the way forward for them to earn more money.

I personally have had FS in a chinese massage place which i did not want because at that point i didn't have the funds, but the lady in question still gave me FS though i did not want it (firstly because of Funds and secondly i was not attracted to her) i kinda gave in and let it happen, but luckily for me it was protected. Hence my recent posting stating i will not return and personally never go to chinese massage shops because of this scare of what would happen if she doesn't use protection. which from your postings looks very like a lot of these girls don't and i can't be in a position to take that risk.

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Is Hiv A Risk?

In simple terms HIV is a risk if you have unprotected sex and the question does not have to be asked. It can also be caught in many other ways so probably the question should be more about how high a risk is it.

We take risks every day in our lives, how do we calculate what risks to take and when not to. I am not into statistics, but I am sure there will be calculation somewhere to determine how high a risk it is, however, that calculation cannot be done without knowing far more details.

If we consider risks

How many people die in car accidents every year

How many people die from cancer every year

How many people die from sports accidents

To calculate them we would need to know how many people are involved in any such activities and evaluate the risk to ourselves, but bear in mind, that you only need to do something once to put yourself in danger.

I had a great start to the day this morning, I woke up....

Sarah x x

PS And due to Gatwick being shut and not being able to get back to the UK, the sun was shining.

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I personally don't understand why anyone would put themselves at such risk, in any walk of life. :o

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I think this thread should have stayed on the Sensual Massage Board *. By far the majority of the full service seekers here rely on the fact that the ladies they visit do not take risks with their bodies, as their working reputations and concern for their own health would not allow them to.

This thread has lost it's value in the full service section. To quote the OP "At the time of my pleasures I thought that it was only me she liked and therefore at little risk." Some of the guys in the massage section need a reality check reading tales like this, and perhaps questioning themselves to who was leading who with the extra services they tempted the lady into offering.

It's a firm belief of mine that ladies who've never offered full service, will dally far closer to the line than those who've crossed it. How aware of the health risks involved with multiple unknown partners are these ladies, when many don't even see themselves as sex workers or prostitutes.

The ladies in the full service section have reputations to loose, with all that's involved building reputations and websites. Most ladies in the sensual massage section have only blurred names associated with deeds someone once got them to do (YMMV) in various massage places around the UK.

* I understand why the thread was moved, due to the reference of known masseuses offering full service, which makes them beyond the realm of the massage section. I don't know who they are tho.

Lilly

I had also hoped that my posting would stay on the other forum for the reasons that you give but like you I have no objection to the decision to move it to here. What your posting does for me though is raise a debate in my own head. Where there is evidence on the FBSM forum that establishments/girls are offerring a fs as a matter of course (and there is evidence), should that thread not be moved to this general discussion forum because clearly what is being offerred is beyond FBSM? My personal view is that where fs is known to be provided, that that establishment/girls should come off the FBSM forum. But that's my view and I think its down to the adminsitrators to decide. My reason for posting was to make an awareness of risks and that's my only angle on this.

Koos

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Great post. Quite seriously, it highlights why Punternet is a Public Service Announcement. A little bored with traditional punting, I had been seriously considering the alternative of Chinese Massage shops recently. Having read your post, now I'm not. In fact, just the knowledge that this sort of thing happens is enough that I'll probably cross the road when I have to simply walk past one in future (exaggeration, yes, but you get my point.) I won't comment on your behavior -- other have already made the points I'd have made -- but I'm bloody glad you told me what you did before I ended up in one of those places. Am I tarring a lot of places and girls with one brush? Undoubtedly. But that's my choice. Honestly, reading that made me shudder.

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Am I tarring a lot of places and girls with one brush? Undoubtedly. But that's my choice. Honestly, reading that made me shudder.

Please dont run away with the notion that if you go into a chinese medicine shop, or any other massage establishment you will be forced to have unprotected penetrative sex because you wont; rather than that you are far more likely to come away empty handed & disapointed, without even having received hand relief. Is that better or worse ? I suppose it depends on how close together your eyes are.

Edited by guestspeaker

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Great post. Quite seriously, it highlights why Punternet is a Public Service Announcement. A little bored with traditional punting, I had been seriously considering the alternative of Chinese Massage shops recently. Having read your post, now I'm not. In fact, just the knowledge that this sort of thing happens is enough that I'll probably cross the road when I have to simply walk past one in future (exaggeration, yes, but you get my point.) I won't comment on your behavior -- other have already made the points I'd have made -- but I'm bloody glad you told me what you did before I ended up in one of those places. Am I tarring a lot of places and girls with one brush? Undoubtedly. But that's my choice. Honestly, reading that made me shudder.

Trolley

Many thanks for your post - what I allowed to happen was stupid and I offer no defence. But the many guys who have contacted me through various means offerring support these past few days has been very comforting, many saying there for the grace of God go I. They say London is a village and its amazing how quickly the same names keep cropping up. But you may want to check out the references on the FBSM thread. Although some should be moved off of that thread, there are still some decent ones out there.

Many thanks again

Koos

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Koos, that's a really honest, and if I may say BRAVE post. I hope no-one takes the high road and jdges you for being honest.

As a former Big Smoke Chinese establishment high mileager I can say your experiences mirror mine very well. I was often offered FS from massage ladies, on the table. One lady attempted to put my little todger where she shouldn't and I literally had to struggle with her to stop her. I did not see her again. This was a real beauty, mid twenties, a figure to die for, lovely kisser...the works!

So I do see how easy it would be to fall for a 'special' lady and believe that you are the only one she does unprotected sex with. VERY easy. I've been close myself on more than one occasion.

I fear many more men, maybe some here, have had, or are having unprotected sex with chinese masseuses regularly, as it is so freely available. Amitting it is brave of you. I was recently asked for unprotected sex by two ladies in a newcastle chinese massage place. I refused, of course. Again, both thirtyish and very pretty.

Get checked out and be safe in the future.

Trolley

Many thanks for your post - what I allowed to happen was stupid and I offer no defence. But the many guys who have contacted me through various means offerring support these past few days has been very comforting, many saying there for the grace of God go I. They say London is a village and its amazing how quickly the same names keep cropping up. But you may want to check out the references on the FBSM thread. Although some should be moved off of that thread, there are still some decent ones out there.

Many thanks again

Koos

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The risk of a single incident unprotected vaginal sex resulting in HIV infection is low. Some studies suggest 0.03%. However it is still a really stupid thing to do....but then you know that. Get tested quick and then put this behind you. Good luck.

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The risk of a single incident unprotected vaginal sex resulting in HIV infection is low. Some studies suggest 0.03%. However it is still a really stupid thing to do....but then you know that. Get tested quick and then put this behind you. Good luck.

There is a really good book called the Wisdom of Whores by Elizabeth Pisani. She is has looked at HIV transmission inmost countries. She also did a TED lecture which I have not watched, but is linked too from this review. There is a section in the book outlining risks, being myself circumcised, I am at a lower risk than those who are not circumcised. The book also goes to explain why Africa has an Aids epidemic, and this epidemic did not materialise in other countries to the same degree.

Having long term regular sex with a partner who has HIV puts you at risk. Using a condom reduces the risk, but does not totally eliminate the risk. Without condom is 5 times more risky.

The politics of the HIV industry is also explained in gory depth, it really does not put the USA in a good light. On here we talk about the rescue industry, the HIV industry, as driven by the USA funding goes hand in hand with the rescue industry. i.e. the US will not spend money on those who really are at risk, sex workers, unless they are saved.

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Unprotected sex with ANYONE puts you at risk of STDs, massuese/WG or not. You need to be tested and for HIV the most reliable test is one taken 3 months after 'exposure'.

Firstly Unprotected sex is like first jumping from 13th floor of building and now going for a test is like assuming while you are falling that someone would have put a thick matress where you will land and hence be saved. So better don't have unprotected sex at all wth any WGs. If you feel this is what you enjoy then be ready to get infected any day from STDs, HIV, Herpes or etc. If someone is having unprotected sex every month or so, I would think he may be knocked off within next 10 years for sure. I don't want to argue over mathematics and probability. I cannot risk my life to a equation!

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OMG- you had unprotected sex in this 21st century with all the information about Aids/Hiv and other sexually transmitted diseases.

Wow thats deep.

Anyway just go to your local GUM clinic and have a test-it doesnt hurt to know.

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