Suffolk Punter

In The Pub.

38 posts in this topic

An ex landlord of a local pub & me were talking a few weeks ago about the rules of running such an establishment.

He mentioned that if the customer was known to be a prostitute then they could refuse to serve the lady in question, this came about while we were discussing the issues of working ladies & one in particular.

Have any of you ladies ever been refused service for the reason above?

BVK

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I had heard this too but couldn't find a link to the rule. I think it refers to 'working' prostitute, and is intended to prevent WGs from soliciting in bars. I often quoted this whenever people have asked about 'working' bars, but it was dismissed through lack of any evidence. Off-duty I don't think there is an issue.

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I thought that a landlord could refuse to serve anyone he chose without having to give a reason. In some bars this could apply to women on their own (possibly an old fashioned way to restrict WG's coming in), obviously people who are under the influence and under age, not dressed appropriately, large groups of youths,etc etc

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I thought that a landlord could refuse to serve anyone he chose without having to give a reason. In some bars this could apply to women on their own (possibly an old fashioned way to restrict WG's coming in), obviously people who are under the influence and under age, not dressed appropriately, large groups of youths,etc etc

This is correct however I'm sure there is a rule in the licence that says he can't serve WGs - no choice about it.

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This is correct however I'm sure there is a rule in the licence that says he can't serve WGs - no choice about it.

I have a friend in the trade. I will check.

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Which one of the two trades is that?

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Which one of the two trades is that?

I like to consider one or two of the posters on here as friends ( and not just virtual ones) but I actually meant the licensed trade.

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Only teasing PP - I have friends on here, plus working girls and landlords, the last 2 of which I pay for their services (and am very pleased to do so).

Could actually cause quite a scene if a landlord/lady tried to throw out a suspected, off duty, working girl. I know that they can refuse to serve anybody they like (likewise the girl), and there are some legal requirements here as well (under age, drunk, etc), but if they make a public accusation stating the reason, could that not be slander? Could make another front page headline for the hard-up-for-news MK local press "working girls now operating from local pubs, and in the family room!!!!" Could even get mummiesnet mobilised!

Although I'm sure it still happens, I think this is pretty discreet these days. I recall an instance many years ago when living in New York (now a desert of punting) when I let my eyes linger too long on a girl across the bar - she came straight over and asked me "s*ck or f*ck?", which was a little embarrassing since I had a few work mates (of all sexes) with me.

Edited by raylondoner

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since I had a few work mates (of all sexes) with me.

I know New York is supposed to be liberal but "ALL sexes"??. It must have been a hell of a bar.

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Deliberate comment on my part - straight guys, straight girls, gay guys, gay girls, and others (which I won't go into here in case any minors are listening in)! Live and let die.............

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Well there are bars in every city centre that make quite a bit of money from WGs [and their punters], so I doubt they would be likely to turn them away due to some outdated law or moralistic tradition. After all, Prostitution and Pubs are the 'Two Oldest Professions' if you think about it !B)

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Deliberate comment on my part - straight guys, straight girls, gay guys, gay girls, and others (which I won't go into here in case any minors are listening in)! Live and let die.............

Perhaps "of all sexual persuasions" was the term. Don't take this to heart though!

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Well, lets have a look...

Licensing Act 2003

Part 6 - Personal Licence

113 Meaning of “relevant offence” and “foreign offence”

(1) In this Part “relevant offence” means an offence listed in Schedule 4.

129 Forfeiture or suspension of licence on conviction for relevant offence

(1) This section applies where the holder of a personal licence is convicted of a relevant offence by or before a court in England and Wales.

(2) The court may—

(a) order the forfeiture of the licence, or

(b.) order its suspension for a period not exceeding six months.

(3) In determining whether to make an order under subsection (2), the court may take account of any previous conviction of the holder for a relevant offence.

(4) Where a court makes an order under this section it may suspend the order pending an appeal against it.

(5) Subject to subsection (4) and section 130, an order under this section takes effect immediately after it is made.

SCHEDULE 4

Personal licence: relevant offences

1 An offence under this Act.

2An offence under any of the following enactments—

(a)Schedule 12 to the London Government Act 1963 (c. 33) (public entertainment licensing);

(b)the Licensing Act 1964 (c. 26); However, this version of the act no longer has effect but did contain the following;

175 Prostitutes not to be allowed to assemble on licensed premises.

(1)The holder of a justices’ licence shall not knowingly allow the licensed premises to be the habitual resort or place of meeting of reputed prostitutes, whether the object of their so resorting or meeting is or is not prostitution; but this section does not prohibit his allowing any such persons to remain in the premises for the purpose of obtaining reasonable refreshment for such time as is necessary for that purpose.

(2)If the holder of a justices’ licence contravenes this section he shall be liable, on a first conviction to a fine not exceeding £25, and on a subsequent conviction to a fine not exceeding £50.

(c.)the Private Places of Entertainment (Licensing) Act 1967 (c. 19);

(d)section 13 of the Theatres Act 1968 (c. 54);

(e)the Late Night Refreshment Houses Act 1969 (c. 53); This seems to be the only restriction in all of the acts that could still be enforced;

1. Meaning of “late night refreshment house”.

(1). For the purposes of this Act, a “late night refreshment house” is a house, room, shop or building kept open for public refreshment, resort and entertainment at any time between the hours of 10 o’clock at night and 5 o’clock of the following morning, other than a house, room, shop or building which is licensed for the sale of beer, cider, wine or spirits.

9. Illegal and disorderly conduct.

(1)If the licensee of a late night refreshment house knowingly permits unlawful gaming therein or knowingly permits prostitutes, thieves, or drunken and disorderly persons to assemble at, or continue in or upon, his premises, he shall be guilty of an offence.

(f)section 6 of, or Schedule 1 to, the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982 (c. 30);

(g)the Licensing (Occasional Permissions) Act 1983 (c. 24);

(h)the Cinemas Act 1985 (c. 13);

(i)the London Local Authorities Act 1990 (c. vii).

Although a couple of the acts reference Sex Establishments they don't mention the public houses or prostitutes.

Additionally, in the Licensing Act 2003, Section 198, SCHEDULE 6 - Minor and consequential amendments it states

Town Police Clauses Act 1847 (c. 89)

4. Section 35 of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 (harbouring thieves or prostitutes at a public venue) ceases to have effect.

So, it seems that while the 1964 act did indeed include a clause that restricted a public house from being a "habitual resort or meeting place of reputed prostitutes", it did not stop them "remaining in the premises for the purpose of obtaining reasonable refreshment for such time as is necessary for that purpose." So, having a drink. As thus, there is no law that says you can be refused service just because the landlord has knowledge of you being a prostitute, previous to the repeal of the 1964 act (I believe it to be in 2003 when the new one came in, though couldn't find confirmation of this outside of my own common sense) if you were using the premises as a meeting place, regardless of whether or not your being there did result in prostitution, it is likely you would be removed from the premises as the landlord could lose his licence over it.

If the premises was running as a late night refreshment house (between the hours of 10pm and 5am) and "knowingly permits prostitutes" (I would assume under the same conditions as the Licensing Act 1964, although this is not specified) then the licence holder would be at risk of losing his licence, but this is only for late night refreshment houses, not for the standard public house.

All info can be found on http://www.legislation.gov.uk/.

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An ex landlord of a local pub & me were talking a few weeks ago about the rules of running such an establishment.

He mentioned that if the customer was known to be a prostitute then they could refuse to serve the lady in question, this came about while we were discussing the issues of working ladies & one in particular.

Have any of you ladies ever been refused service for the reason above?

BVK

I was under the impression that a Public House landlord could refuse to serve anybody they wished.

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...and I think that a licencee can also be done for serving booze to an on-duty constable, although I well remember, forty some years ago, my horror, when I was in the bar of a highland hotel at about 0400, with a most attractive coloratura soprano, and a constable walked in, took off his crash helmet, looked significantly round the bar, and then turned to the barman, asked for a large whisky AND PAID FOR IT IN CASH!

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...and I think that a licencee can also be done for serving booze to an on-duty constable, although I well remember, forty some years ago, my horror, when I was in the bar of a highland hotel at about 0400, with a most attractive coloratura soprano, and a constable walked in, took off his crash helmet, looked significantly round the bar, and then turned to the barman, asked for a large whisky AND PAID FOR IT IN CASH!

That would have certainly put me off my stroke.

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...and I think that a licencee can also be done for serving booze to an on-duty constable

There used to be a rule about not serving a police officer in uniform, but this was repealed in 2003. It still causes some confusion though, as seen in this very balanced article in the Daily Mail.

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Thought that myself pp - balanced, DM, same sentence? hmmmmmmmm??

Edited by raylondoner

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I've never seen a balanced article in the Daily mail

Sorry, my sarcasm didn't shine through as much as it should have. The comments are quite entertaining too. The fourth highest rated by their readers called for the shop assistant to be sacked over the misunderstanding and for a national boycott of all Co-Ops. How's that for balanced?

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How's this for balanced then. Shop assistant serves a 17 year old, and ends up losing her job. Sounds as if she simply wasn't sure, and since breaking licensing laws can be quite serious, she decided to check.

I'd say they need to make sure their staff are briefed better in future. I'd rather have someone err on the side of caution, then break rules even if they are mistaken. There are far worse things going on than refusing to serve someone in uniform, but it obviously wasn't funny since he'd travelled such a long way from such a stressful place.

Edited by Strawberry

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The reactions are mainly ridiculous. I am in total sympathy with the soldier, I'm pretty sure that when they are on tour in Afghan they aren't allowed alcohol at all. I think that I might well fancy a beer when I got back to the UK.

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...and I think that a licencee can also be done for serving booze to an on-duty constable, although I well remember, forty some years ago, my horror, when I was in the bar of a highland hotel at about 0400, with a most attractive coloratura soprano, and a constable walked in, took off his crash helmet, looked significantly round the bar, and then turned to the barman, asked for a large whisky AND PAID FOR IT IN CASH!

I had a client who was a retired police officer and he told me that many years ago it was quite the norm

for policemen to drink on duty!!!! It was not against any rules at all.

:blink:

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