nntt

Assessing Values

15 posts in this topic

There was a thread not long back which asked why some guys didn't punt and why. I did answer this, but it got me thinking how many guys analyse what they are doing and why based on their personal ethics.

So I have attempted to write down my thoughts on the subject to see what position it leads me to.

I'm stuck on this point; If any transaction is to be considered (under my values) "right" it has to be respectful on both sides, with either party approaching the transaction with the "correct" intentions and "values" for a positive outcome on both sides.

For example, an employer uses an employee to conduct work and make a profit; an employee uses an employer to make a wage and a living, a mutual respect and a moral transaction of positive effect for both. If either party, for example, is subject to unsafe working conditions etc the transaction becomes exploitative and has to be considered immoral on either or both sides.

So applying it here, if an escort (male or female - I'm not looking at gender) is subject to force, for example, that is not only unlawful but immoral under my ethics. The same could be said true if either party is motivated to the transaction by destructive elements or values.

Therefore, if your ethical standpoint is you want to remain both within the law and within your personal moral values, how exactly can you practically assess the motivations and values of another person in an escorting situation? Is this even possible, maybe it can only extend to what happens in the appointment time? Can there be such a thing as an "ethical punter"?

So to the guys I guess I'm asking do you do anything or can you do anything practically to be "ethical" before booking to see an escort? Is it right to ask about the values of an escort before an appointment i.e. why is she working etc to make an informed "ethical" choice on values beyond merely the physical attraction of an escort, or is this a no go area? If so, what values are important and how do you go about this?

To the ladies, I'd ask the reverse. There are clearly values we all hold important, maybe politeness etc, what values do you hold important and how do you assess them, or do you assess them before seeing a client or during an appointment?

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Blimey, if I ever need a reason to justify my punting activities, I'll pay you!

More later, when I have time to think about your comments.

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There was a thread not long back which asked why some guys didn't punt and why. I did answer this, but it got me thinking how many guys analyse what they are doing and why based on their personal ethics.

So I have attempted to write down my thoughts on the subject to see what position it leads me to.

I'm stuck on this point; If any transaction is to be considered (under my values) "right" it has to be respectful on both sides, with either party approaching the transaction with the "correct" intentions and "values" for a positive outcome on both sides.

For example, an employer uses an employee to conduct work and make a profit; an employee uses an employer to make a wage and a living, a mutual respect and a moral transaction of positive effect for both. If either party, for example, is subject to unsafe working conditions etc the transaction becomes exploitative and has to be considered immoral on either or both sides.

So applying it here, if an escort (male or female - I'm not looking at gender) is subject to force, for example, that is not only unlawful but immoral under my ethics. The same could be said true if either party is motivated to the transaction by destructive elements or values.

Therefore, if your ethical standpoint is you want to remain both within the law and within your personal moral values, how exactly can you practically assess the motivations and values of another person in an escorting situation? Is this even possible, maybe it can only extend to what happens in the appointment time? Can there be such a thing as an "ethical punter"?

So to the guys I guess I'm asking do you do anything or can you do anything practically to be "ethical" before booking to see an escort? Is it right to ask about the values of an escort before an appointment i.e. why is she working etc to make an informed "ethical" choice on values beyond merely the physical attraction of an escort, or is this a no go area? If so, what values are important and how do you go about this?

To the ladies, I'd ask the reverse. There are clearly values we all hold important, maybe politeness etc, what values do you hold important and how do you assess them, or do you assess them before seeing a client or during an appointment?

Its certainly only within the time of the punt, what the lady does outside that appointment i have no way of knowing. I can only assess that the ladies motivation is to take my money in exchange for having sex with me, this is within my moral compass which makes me able to punt. If an ethical punter is one that only wants to punt with ladies he believes are willing and consentual then i am one, but i have no way of knowing for definate that the lady isnt being coerced unless she tells me or i believe she is. I simply am not privvy to her life.

I go on the ladies attitude, what she says, demeanour and body language and my perception that i believe she is offering her services through her own free will. I can come to that conclusion easier if she has recent reviews/feedback by others which show a pattern of seemingly being willing, with a newbie to me who has no feedback it comes down to just meeting her on the day and my perception that she seems willing going on the above.

Edited by smiths

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A very long post but to cut to the point I would try never to punt with anyone who seemed at all unwilling. Trafficked ladies are all too common in some establishments so as far as possible I visit indies. You can never be certain but the risk of coercion is less with an indie.

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A very long post but to cut to the point I would try never to punt with anyone who seemed at all unwilling. Trafficked ladies are all too common in some establishments so as far as possible I visit indies. You can never be certain but the risk of coercion is less with an indie.

I dont think they are many guys who would be interested in spending time with a girl who hates being there. Indeed the ladies know this and go often go overboard to ' prove ' that they are enjoying our company.

I think this is an interesting question ;

I presume that many ladies and punters here remember the days before the explosion of the internet, the influx of girls from EE and elsewhere-- where there was less competition . I have read posts here where it has been said that at that time there was little or no 'gfe' attitude, same with french kissing etc,etc. Since then the ladies , thru boards like this and FRs and increased competition generally appear to have been forced to' up their game' and it has been argued that as a result now is a golden period for punters.

Now my question is, leaving aside the issue of any possible fall in income as a result of these changes, has the increased effort required to up the standard of experience to the client resulted in more or less job satisfaction to the WG ? Has the necessity for a GFE attitude rubbed off in a positive way for the lady herself ?

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Its certainly only within the time of the punt, what the lady does outside that appointment i have no way of knowing. I can only assess that the ladies motivation is to take my money in exchange for having sex with me, this is within my moral compass which makes me able to punt. If an ethical punter is one that only wants to punt with ladies he believes are willing and consentual then i am one, but i have no way of knowing for definate that the lady isnt being coerced unless she tells me or i believe she is. I simply am not privvy to her life.

I go on the ladies attitude, what she says, demeanour and body language and my perception that i believe she is offering her services through her own free will. I can come to that conclusion easier if she has recent reviews/feedback by others which show a pattern of seemingly being willing, with a newbie to me who has no feedback it comes down to just meeting her on the day and my perception that she seems willing going on the above.

Going with the premise that the question is addressing only the wg/punter exchange (ie not the broader "why", which has been done to death elsewhere) then I think you're absolutely spot on with that answer; very neatly put and definitely holds true for me.

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First and main issue is that the lady is working entirely of here own volition. I would no more want to be involved with anyone working under the least coercion than I would want to see someone with every STD known to man.

That said, I accept that they are doing a job, as I do a job. If I had more money in the bank, I've now reached the stage where wouldn't continue doing that job. Some encounters feel like they are doing a job and that they really want to go home, while others (most, you like to think) are a good deal better than that.

Regarding the Eastern European girls, then I like to see it in terms of the fact that the guy I work for is a extremely wealthy, and he passes some of that wealth down to me and if I pass some of on it to them, then I am a making a major contribution to the international re-distribution of wealth; surely, a good and proper Socialist (nee Christian?)endeavour :). Ethics done.

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A very long post but to cut to the point I would try never to punt with anyone who seemed at all unwilling. Trafficked ladies are all too common in some establishments so as far as possible I visit indies. You can never be certain but the risk of coercion is less with an indie.

Interesting point(s) on coercion. Maybe you have to look at a wider definition though. Coercion surely isn't just about trafficking and some violent gangmaster from Eastern Europe. I guess you could argue any substance abuse, even enonomic factors are coercion, it is then what your values deem acceptable or otherwise. I think the vast majority of people would say coercion through violence is illegal, immoral and wrong. However, if an escort has to work through financial pressures and lack of opportunity, is that form of economic coercion wrong (some would argue yes, some no)? I don't think you can just band a term about without defining your values further.

I think smiths reply is very good and a good template. I guess looking at reviews or feedback is a good tool and maybe also email communication (where possible), this board and of course "instinct" and "actions" when meeting can help inform an enthical choice.

I therefore assume the ultimate answer is you can do everything in your power to make legal and ethical choices, perhaps even in some rare situation where you know an escort and his/her motivations you can make an ethical choice. However, for the majority of times the nature of the transaction means you can never really be sure 100%, which I guess is true of many situations and in many transactions.

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Interesting point(s) on coercion. Maybe you have to look at a wider definition though. Coercion surely isn't just about trafficking and some violent gangmaster from Eastern Europe. I guess you could argue any substance abuse, even enonomic factors are coercion, it is then what your values deem acceptable or otherwise. I think the vast majority of people would say coercion through violence is illegal, immoral and wrong. However, if an escort has to work through financial pressures and lack of opportunity, is that form of economic coercion wrong (some would argue yes, some no)? I don't think you can just band a term about without defining your values further.

I think smiths reply is very good and a good template. I guess looking at reviews or feedback is a good tool and maybe also email communication (where possible), this board and of course "instinct" and "actions" when meeting can help inform an enthical choice.

I therefore assume the ultimate answer is you can do everything in your power to make legal and ethical choices, perhaps even in some rare situation where you know an escort and his/her motivations you can make an ethical choice. However, for the majority of times the nature of the transaction means you can never really be sure 100%, which I guess is true of many situations and in many transactions.

Unless the WG decides to discuss her financial situation i wouldnt be aware of it and the same with her lack of other job opportunities. If the lady becomes a WG to pay her debts off or as she sees it as something she can make money at quickly then these are all her choices, she may think this is her only option but once she has decided to start working as a WG of her own free decision making, its not coercion in my view she could stop at any time if thats what she decided. If the lady became a WG to feed a drug habit unless i thought she was on something i simply wouldnt be aware, if it was obvious to me i would not punt or continue to punt with her, firstly as i wouldnt want to be feeding her habit, secondly there are plenty of other WGs to choose from who as far as i would be aware are not taking illegal drugs and thirdly there is a very small chance i could get into police bother myself if she were to be raided, even the thought of this and her having a habit would ensure i wouldnt risk punting with her again.

I agree with your conclusions in your last paragraph and that its true of many situations and in many tranactions. I do find it interesting that you and others have mentioned Eastern Europe, ladies from their are no more or less likely to be trafficked and/or coerced than those from Asia who are on Bonds and foreign WGs generally unless posters know something i dont.

Edited by smiths

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However, if an escort has to work through financial pressures and lack of opportunity, is that form of economic coercion wrong (some would argue yes, some no)? I don't think you can just band a term about without defining your values further.

We all have financial pressures that, to a greater or lesser extent, force us to work. If I hadn't worked hard over the last 40 years or so I would not now own my house, drive a fairly modern car, holiday abroad, eat in restaurants etc etc. Was I coerced to work?

In my terms coercions carries an element of threat of punishment or force.

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So Smiths, all, how do you think, given the discussion, an escort would react if you did ask questions such as why he/she was doing the job etc before a meeting to determine an ethical choice? I guess it would be generally considered invasive and rude? You also then depend on getting a truthful answer.

Which brings me back to my starting point, can there be such a thing as an ethical punter, and if so, what is the practical framework to ensure it? I think there is, but it would require prior knowledge and would only be applicable in a small amount of cases, meaning a punter would have to not carry through a percentage of desired appointments.

It is interesting to note if the role of an intermediary would change this? Say you had a respect and trust in the role of someone running a massage parlour, you assume (or would have to find out) they don't tolerate bad values in either clients or escorts and the escort equally trusts them, therefore they could be an ethical medium to ensuring a moral transaction?

Edited by nntt

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So Smiths, all, how do you think, given the discussion, an escort would react if you did ask questions such as why he/she was doing the job etc before a meeting to determine an ethical choice? I guess it would be generally considered invasive and rude? You also then depend on getting a truthful answer.

Which brings me back to my starting point, can there be such a thing as an ethical punter, and if so, what is the practical framework to ensure it? I think there is, but it would require prior knowledge and would only be applicable in a small amount of cases, meaning a punter would have to not carry through a percentage of desired appointments.

It is interesting to note if the role of an intermediary would change this? Say you had a respect and trust in the role of someone running a massage parlour, you assume (or would have to find out) they don't tolerate bad values in either clients or escorts and the escort equally trusts them, therefore they could be an ethical medium to ensuring a moral transaction?

In my experience asking questions like this would go down like a lead balloon, only after you get to know the lady a bit or she feels she wants to open up will these kind of things be discussed. And as you say even then it depends on getting a truthful answer which i would have no way of knowing is actually the truth.

An Establishment that the lady gets her work from may have a vested interest in telling me what they think i want to hear, again it comes down to not having enough knowledge as a punter to know for definate whether i would be told the real truth or the truth they think i want to hear to ensure my business.

All a punter with no personal insight into a WG can do is make his own mind up on the evidence in front of him and what he believes to be the case, he has then done all he can do in my opinion.

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There was a thread not long back which asked why some guys didn't punt and why. I did answer this, but it got me thinking how many guys analyse what they are doing and why based on their personal ethics.

So I have attempted to write down my thoughts on the subject to see what position it leads me to.

I'm stuck on this point; If any transaction is to be considered (under my values) "right" it has to be respectful on both sides, with either party approaching the transaction with the "correct" intentions and "values" for a positive outcome on both sides.

For example, an employer uses an employee to conduct work and make a profit; an employee uses an employer to make a wage and a living, a mutual respect and a moral transaction of positive effect for both. If either party, for example, is subject to unsafe working conditions etc the transaction becomes exploitative and has to be considered immoral on either or both sides.

So applying it here, if an escort (male or female - I'm not looking at gender) is subject to force, for example, that is not only unlawful but immoral under my ethics. The same could be said true if either party is motivated to the transaction by destructive elements or values.

Therefore, if your ethical standpoint is you want to remain both within the law and within your personal moral values, how exactly can you practically assess the motivations and values of another person in an escorting situation? Is this even possible, maybe it can only extend to what happens in the appointment time? Can there be such a thing as an "ethical punter"?

So to the guys I guess I'm asking do you do anything or can you do anything practically to be "ethical" before booking to see an escort? Is it right to ask about the values of an escort before an appointment i.e. why is she working etc to make an informed "ethical" choice on values beyond merely the physical attraction of an escort, or is this a no go area? If so, what values are important and how do you go about this?

To the ladies, I'd ask the reverse. There are clearly values we all hold important, maybe politeness etc, what values do you hold important and how do you assess them, or do you assess them before seeing a client or during an appointment?

The biggest value I have always maintained is to treat everyone as I would like to be treat myself. Also politness doesn't cost anything.

Shelly

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The biggest value I have always maintained is to treat everyone as I would like to be treat myself. Also politness doesn't cost anything.

Shelly

I also "sort of believe" in this, but it has a weakness in terms of inequality of power. It fails to take into account the view point of another, why not ask someone how they would like to be treated instead of placing your values on them, which they may or may not share? So say you have a violent person determined to start a fight with another person, under the logic of "the golden rule" he is entitled to punch another person, because he is looking for violence and that is how he wants to be treated?

We need underlying values.

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I also "sort of believe" in this, but it has a weakness in terms of inequality of power. It fails to take into account the view point of another, why not ask someone how they would like to be treated instead of placing your values on them, which they may or may not share? So say you have a violent person determined to start a fight with another person, under the logic of "the golden rule" he is entitled to punch another person, because he is looking for violence and that is how he wants to be treated?

We need underlying values.

No, we need negative rights (in the Isaiah Berlin sense). The violent person's rights stop where the other person's rights start. We need enforcement of rights, but we don't need active enforcement of obligations, which is what you might mean by values.

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