Ebonypru

Punters Who Have Dated Working Girls/retired Working Girls

25 posts in this topic

This is to those guys that have gone on to date or marry a lady they had previously booked as an escort? Did the sexual side of things live up to expectations? The Accidental CIM thread got me wondering about what we ladies do as escorts but wouldn't countenance as civilians, and if indeed there is a difference.

Ladies, would you wear the same clothes, entertain the same suggestions, etc, if you got into a relationship with someone that used to be a client - the assumption being that he has seen what you are like when providing intimacy as a service?

xxx

Pru

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I went out with a WG for around 6 months or so - the sex was MINT - she'd do owt'n'anything for me (and me for her) - she was just mentally unstable and to put it bluntly a wee bit thick - only the rootin kept me seeing her for so long!

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In my case ...no.

After over 3 years of seeing her in various parlours and hotels and then her various flats, and going on holiday together as friends on a couple of occasions, not to mention my spending nearly £100k, she moved in for 4 months. Within a week she moved into one of the spare rooms. She did absolutely no house work. I did all her washing. She broke everything that she touched....LCD TV, stereo system, shower, kettle. washing machine etc etc. She was also messy and untidy.

Sex was very irregular and occasional....but still good. Sometimes she made me feel guilty if I asked.

After 4 months (and a petty row where she'd been busting for an argument all week) she moved to her parents. Came back 9 months later for a month. Even though she didn't like doing "A" she said that she would with me if I wanted, but it didn't really appeal to me. On the last Sunday at my place she said perhaps she could come to tea one Sunday to meet my parents. Later in bed she offered (without any suggestion on my part) to go on the pill and we could dispense with condoms.

The very next day she went back to a parlour to earn some money and met some guy who distributed cards for the parlour. He's a heroin addict who's been in and out of prison since his teens and who likes to use her as a punch-bag. Two and a half years later after she left I'm left wondering where did all the fantasy go wrong, and where did all my money go.

Never again!!

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I did it, the sex was good, however more a case of what she told a GUM nurse was blow jobs for ironing, babysitting, lawn mowing etc, she got plenty of sex at work. The interesting thing that we both got into was she liked me to dominate her, do 'rape' fantasies and stuff, in her working life she normally did the dom' side, at home it was reversed and it was the time she got into it most along with MMF.

Edited by mike52

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Hi, this is my first report on this site and I only joined so I could reply to this thread....

...I know you (Pru) directed this thread to the Men, but I wanted to add my 2 pence worth

I hope you don’t mind.

I am one of the rare breed of working girls that is very happy with who I am and what I am...

I am very single and very happy with all my men friends (I liken it to time share, you all help me get what I want from a man)

I know that relationships with working girls do not work, so that is my first bit of advice

but in the past I did date a guy I met at work.......

But evenI became just like the "wife" that you men say......"doesn’t understand your needs!"

so here are few tips to why even highly sexed up women become....just the same as your wife or Girlfriend when you live together

I won’t bore you with the women who are mums and are tiered and worried the kids can hear...

..or that if you keep putting her down or moaning at her she wont want to reward you

and this is just for a laugh, so don’t anyone get stroppy about it

1)...in the early days you loved the way she dressed and told her pretty her made up face was..... but then you moan at her for trying to look nice when going shopping or out with friends or even in the house so she stopped bothering.....

......when a women doesn’t look nice she doesn’t feel nice when she doest feel nice she doesn’t get in the mood!!

2).....if she hasn’t washed or shaved she wont want you to see (or smell) her like that......

.....but she wont tell you that!....she will just say..."not tonight dear"

3).....at the end of the day you both go to bed and as soon as she turns the light out, you poke her in the back....

.......forget it mate....as soon as you entered that room she went into sleep mode......nothing can stop her from wanting to sleep

.......and don’t say......"roll over hun it wont take me long"

4).....if you do get lucky......but you lift the covers up and say "he wants a kiss goodnight" and she says no

......this is because it is suffocating under those covers. also, oh and im not saying that ALL you men are all like this.....but most men don’t wash it after they pee, and that is normally the last thing you did before you got into bed...its not nice!

5).....when you are both at home and she is doing the house work and you are doing the garden or putting the kids to bed (well I like to think that we are equals) you have had dinner, next the telly is turned on and its Eastenders, Corry, The Bill, The News, maybe something else, then Bed.....

......WHEN WAS THE RIGHT TIME TO DO IT! cos like I said before....you cant stop that sleep mode when you head for bed

6).......ok so the kids are at Granny's candles in the bedroom she dressed up all nice for ya and the FOOTBALL is on the telly

.........she WONT BE DOING THAT AGAIN

7)....now it has become an Issue about the lack of sex in your home.......

.......there is nothing worse than a women wanting sex but because this has become a big deal, she cant ask for it now!

ok so now some tips on what gets us in the mood......

1)....Praise

......Oh wow you stunning in that...

2)....Praise

.......you are a fantastic mother to our/your kids

3).....Praise

......your gonna knock them dead in that outfit.... I am so proud that, even with all those good looking men looking at you, I know you only have eyes for me

4).....Praise

.......That was the most amazing sex I ever had

5).....Praise

.......you have worked so hard today, I am gonna run you a bath and light come candles.....

6)….failing all that…

………PAY HER LOL……and all jokes aside….I bet she would!

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Great contributions reflecting some of the various possible outcomes in this scenario.

One of my regulars asked if we could become fuck buddies once I've retired later this year.

We have a deal for him that is a 15 minute quickie. He rings up, I confirm he can come over, I let him in, thrust a beer in his hand as we walk past the fridge, we both exchanging light hearted banter all the way to the bedroom. By the bedroom, I'm talking less because I'm concentrating on unzipping him, and giving him a wipe (in his case an auto-pilot exercise as he's always clean enough to suck right there and then). Only when he can feel the warmth of my mouth does his chatting stop ...

A bit of kissing, a bit of anal, then it's over and he's downing his beer. Occasionally, if I'm in the mood and I don't have to hold him to the 15 minutes, he'll give me an orgasm. Most times I decline, well push away this kind offer. Apart from me enjoying the anal sex, and him having a lovely member both for oral and anal, he's the one getting uncomplicated, guaranteed release from it. And we do get on really, really well. I admire what he does for a living, and we'll talk about our individual naughty escapades.

But he thinks I'd have the time of day for sex on those terms if there wasn't payment. I wouldn't. What I do when I'm not Pru is so time consuming, I don't even have the time to think about sex. A fuck buddy interrupting my real life would be an interruption. He thinks we'd continue the same open the door and drop down the pants and get naked type of experience. He talks about his ex (mother of his children) and the grief she gives him. So something uncomplicated is really what he needs for his occasional outpouring.

So, he'd be disappointed in me, either as a fuck buddy or a relationship. He thinks the only change when I retire will be the money that changes hands. But he'd probably feel quite betrayed that I was a different person as a civilian to what he'd experienced as a hooker.

xxx

Pru

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She did a right number on you! Doesn't sound like she ever tried, or ever intended to be a half decent companion. That's a damn shame! Why do women like her always attract the decent men? Please don't give up on being good. I know, easier said than done. But you could one day meet a lady who makes you feel like a prince, and not a mug. And if by then you've turned into a right cynical jerk, it could cost you a chance at happiness.

xxx

Pru

In my case ...no.

After over 3 years of seeing her in various parlours and hotels and then her various flats, and going on holiday together as friends on a couple of occasions, not to mention my spending nearly £100k, she moved in for 4 months. Within a week she moved into one of the spare rooms. She did absolutely no house work. I did all her washing. She broke everything that she touched....LCD TV, stereo system, shower, kettle. washing machine etc etc. She was also messy and untidy.

Sex was very irregular and occasional....but still good. Sometimes she made me feel guilty if I asked.

After 4 months (and a petty row where she'd been busting for an argument all week) she moved to her parents. Came back 9 months later for a month. Even though she didn't like doing "A" she said that she would with me if I wanted, but it didn't really appeal to me. On the last Sunday at my place she said perhaps she could come to tea one Sunday to meet my parents. Later in bed she offered (without any suggestion on my part) to go on the pill and we could dispense with condoms.

The very next day she went back to a parlour to earn some money and met some guy who distributed cards for the parlour. He's a heroin addict who's been in and out of prison since his teens and who likes to use her as a punch-bag. Two and a half years later after she left I'm left wondering where did all the fantasy go wrong, and where did all my money go.

Never again!!

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MMF? Do you mean MFM (two straight guys with a woman) or MMF (two bi or bi-up for it guys with a woman)?

I can see her point, counting on you for what she doesn't get at work. If it wasn't a love relationship, she probably figured she could cut be excused from doing the routine stuff she was doing day in and day out at work.

The other possible point of view is that for women like me with a slightly delicate pussy that is easily bruised if care isn't taken, I won't let anyone touch my pussy outside of work. THAT is for my clients. I won't turn away a paying client because someone banged it to smitherings the night before. And as relationships don't operate on the clock then it is

xxx

Pru

I did it, the sex was good, however more a case of what she told a GUM nurse was blow jobs for ironing, babysitting, lawn mowing etc, she got plenty of sex at work. The interesting thing that we both got into was she liked me to dominate her, do 'rape' fantasies and stuff, in her working life she normally did the dom' side, at home it was reversed and it was the time she got into it most along with MMF.

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She did a right number on you! Doesn't sound like she ever tried, or ever intended to be a half decent companion. That's a damn shame! Why do women like her always attract the decent men? Please don't give up on being good. I know, easier said than done. But you could one day meet a lady who makes you feel like a prince, and not a mug. And if by then you've turned into a right cynical jerk, it could cost you a chance at happiness.

xxx

Pru

Pru, isn't it a case that people like that, like other unbalanced people, have an eye for the sort of people they can exploit? All men can be charmed, all it requires is for the woman to decide she is going to charm that man. The insane too, a psychiatrist once explained to me, can spot immediately who they can offload their obsessions on. I was once in my office with a couple of colleagues when a completely mad woman walked into the room, and obliged me to follow her - mainly dumbshow - harrowing account of her troubles. She didn't give a glance at my two colleagues, but walked straight over to me, and, even when they tried to engage her in conversation, refused to be distracted. "Of course she did," said the psychiatrist afterwards. "She'd got your number straightaway as a soft touch." Like dogs: they can tell a mile off who will like them and who won't.

Silverado always strikes me as a nice, obliging, easygoing sort of a bloke - ripe to be taken advantage of by the unscrupulous.

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I never meant for ladies to feel they couldn't contribute. :( I should have phrased it better!

But I'm glad it drew you out. That's an epic first post! Thanks. It also acknowledges the dynamics of what goes on in the mind of a jaded wife or girl-friend some of the time. Maybe they realise that refusing to have sex is the only way they can make the guy feel half as bad as he has made her feel, even if unintentionally.

xxx

Pru

Hi, this is my first report on this site and I only joined so I could reply to this thread....

...I know you (Pru) directed this thread to the Men, but I wanted to add my 2 pence worth

I hope you don’t mind.

I am one of the rare breed of working girls that is very happy with who I am and what I am...

I am very single and very happy with all my men friends (I liken it to time share, you all help me get what I want from a man)

I know that relationships with working girls do not work, so that is my first bit of advice

but in the past I did date a guy I met at work.......

But evenI became just like the "wife" that you men say......"doesn’t understand your needs!"

so here are few tips to why even highly sexed up women become....just the same as your wife or Girlfriend when you live together

I won’t bore you with the women who are mums and are tiered and worried the kids can hear...

..or that if you keep putting her down or moaning at her she wont want to reward you

and this is just for a laugh, so don’t anyone get stroppy about it

1)...in the early days you loved the way she dressed and told her pretty her made up face was..... but then you moan at her for trying to look nice when going shopping or out with friends or even in the house so she stopped bothering.....

......when a women doesn’t look nice she doesn’t feel nice when she doest feel nice she doesn’t get in the mood!!

2).....if she hasn’t washed or shaved she wont want you to see (or smell) her like that......

.....but she wont tell you that!....she will just say..."not tonight dear"

3).....at the end of the day you both go to bed and as soon as she turns the light out, you poke her in the back....

.......forget it mate....as soon as you entered that room she went into sleep mode......nothing can stop her from wanting to sleep

.......and don’t say......"roll over hun it wont take me long"

4).....if you do get lucky......but you lift the covers up and say "he wants a kiss goodnight" and she says no

......this is because it is suffocating under those covers. also, oh and im not saying that ALL you men are all like this.....but most men don’t wash it after they pee, and that is normally the last thing you did before you got into bed...its not nice!

5).....when you are both at home and she is doing the house work and you are doing the garden or putting the kids to bed (well I like to think that we are equals) you have had dinner, next the telly is turned on and its Eastenders, Corry, The Bill, The News, maybe something else, then Bed.....

......WHEN WAS THE RIGHT TIME TO DO IT! cos like I said before....you cant stop that sleep mode when you head for bed

6).......ok so the kids are at Granny's candles in the bedroom she dressed up all nice for ya and the FOOTBALL is on the telly

.........she WONT BE DOING THAT AGAIN

7)....now it has become an Issue about the lack of sex in your home.......

.......there is nothing worse than a women wanting sex but because this has become a big deal, she cant ask for it now!

ok so now some tips on what gets us in the mood......

1)....Praise

......Oh wow you stunning in that...

2)....Praise

.......you are a fantastic mother to our/your kids

3).....Praise

......your gonna knock them dead in that outfit.... I am so proud that, even with all those good looking men looking at you, I know you only have eyes for me

4).....Praise

.......That was the most amazing sex I ever had

5).....Praise

.......you have worked so hard today, I am gonna run you a bath and light come candles.....

6)….failing all that…

………PAY HER LOL……and all jokes aside….I bet she would!

Edited by Ebonypru

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A several years back a Lady whom I regularly visited retired. Just last year while at the market we bumped into each other. I learned from her that she had brought a condo in my part of the world and spends 3 months of the year away from the cold British winters. Now, during the winters we ocassionally have lunches, go to the cinema or concerts ,when she is wintering here. She is now a friend, not a friend with special benenfits. The relationship in the past was strictly business... the relationship now is that of friends that enjoy similar social activities.

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MMF? Do you mean MFM (two straight guys with a woman) or MMF (two bi or bi-up for it guys with a woman)?

I can see her point, counting on you for what she doesn't get at work. If it wasn't a love relationship, she probably figured she could cut be excused from doing the routine stuff she was doing day in and day out at work.

[/quote ]

It was a 2 straight guy thing, she'd fancied doing one for years and when it did happen, (we were on holiday at the time), she enjoyed it so much she forgot to charge the guy. When we came back from holiday she kept pushing it whenever she could, especially with regulars. It was something that I thought she'd like, most women enjoy MMF. The amount she into being sub in our home life was initially a bit of a surprise as she was quite a dominanr controlling person, however not on the sexual side of our relationship. After that relationship I got quite into being dom with other women.

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A lot of thoughtful and civilised comments on this post.

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MMF? Do you mean MFM (two straight guys with a woman) or MMF (two bi or bi-up for it guys with a woman)?

That's the first time I have encountered this subtle differentiation - maybe that's why so few punters manage to persuade others to join them for an MMF, when they really mean an MFM!

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ok so now some tips on what gets us in the mood......

1)....Praise

......Oh wow you stunning in that...

2)....Praise

.......you are a fantastic mother to our/your kids

3).....Praise

......your gonna knock them dead in that outfit.... I am so proud that, even with all those good looking men looking at you, I know you only have eyes for me

4).....Praise

.......That was the most amazing sex I ever had

5).....Praise

.......you have worked so hard today, I am gonna run you a bath and light come candles.....

I was going to post a sarcastic riposte, but actually here's an article that backs you up:

http://dodsonandross.com/blogs/lilithland/2011/03/im-too-fat-have-sex-women-body-image-low-desire

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for some time after her official retirement, but alas no longer, I had access to a wg who kept some availability for a few clients because at least in part she couldn't manage on the sex provided by her partner only (with his consent as far as i know). Sex was the same as when I paid for it but she was more liberal with time. I always offered to pay but after she retired she refused. Not quite answering the question....

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Hi, this is my first report on this site and I only joined so I could reply to this thread....

...I know you (Pru) directed this thread to the Men, but I wanted to add my 2 pence worth

I hope you don’t mind.

I am one of the rare breed of working girls that is very happy with who I am and what I am...

I am very single and very happy with all my men friends (I liken it to time share, you all help me get what I want from a man)

I know that relationships with working girls do not work, so that is my first bit of advice

but in the past I did date a guy I met at work.......

But evenI became just like the "wife" that you men say......"doesn’t understand your needs!"

so here are few tips to why even highly sexed up women become....just the same as your wife or Girlfriend when you live together

I won’t bore you with the women who are mums and are tiered and worried the kids can hear...

..or that if you keep putting her down or moaning at her she wont want to reward you

and this is just for a laugh, so don’t anyone get stroppy about it

1)...in the early days you loved the way she dressed and told her pretty her made up face was..... but then you moan at her for trying to look nice when going shopping or out with friends or even in the house so she stopped bothering.....

......when a women doesn’t look nice she doesn’t feel nice when she doest feel nice she doesn’t get in the mood!!

2).....if she hasn’t washed or shaved she wont want you to see (or smell) her like that......

.....but she wont tell you that!....she will just say..."not tonight dear"

3).....at the end of the day you both go to bed and as soon as she turns the light out, you poke her in the back....

.......forget it mate....as soon as you entered that room she went into sleep mode......nothing can stop her from wanting to sleep

.......and don’t say......"roll over hun it wont take me long"

4).....if you do get lucky......but you lift the covers up and say "he wants a kiss goodnight" and she says no

......this is because it is suffocating under those covers. also, oh and im not saying that ALL you men are all like this.....but most men don’t wash it after they pee, and that is normally the last thing you did before you got into bed...its not nice!

5).....when you are both at home and she is doing the house work and you are doing the garden or putting the kids to bed (well I like to think that we are equals) you have had dinner, next the telly is turned on and its Eastenders, Corry, The Bill, The News, maybe something else, then Bed.....

......WHEN WAS THE RIGHT TIME TO DO IT! cos like I said before....you cant stop that sleep mode when you head for bed

6).......ok so the kids are at Granny's candles in the bedroom she dressed up all nice for ya and the FOOTBALL is on the telly

.........she WONT BE DOING THAT AGAIN

7)....now it has become an Issue about the lack of sex in your home.......

.......there is nothing worse than a women wanting sex but because this has become a big deal, she cant ask for it now!

ok so now some tips on what gets us in the mood......

1)....Praise

......Oh wow you stunning in that...

2)....Praise

.......you are a fantastic mother to our/your kids

3).....Praise

......your gonna knock them dead in that outfit.... I am so proud that, even with all those good looking men looking at you, I know you only have eyes for me

4).....Praise

.......That was the most amazing sex I ever had

5).....Praise

.......you have worked so hard today, I am gonna run you a bath and light come candles.....

6)….failing all that…

………PAY HER LOL……and all jokes aside….I bet she would!

Excellent post.

Always wondered why the sex in relationships always drops after a few years.

However what if you do all the praising, tell her she smells and looks great, but she still doesn't want sex? And how do you stop her from going into 'sleep' mode?

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I remember when the lady I mentioned earlier I first went out with some friends of mine for a drink and a bite to eat. My mate Pete is a painter and decorator, and at the time he was doing up his house. We were sat having a drink and he mentioned it was taking longer to do than he'd hope because when he'd fininshed work for the day he didn't feel like starting again at home. I said it was quite normal, most people were like that. My lady leaned across patted my hand and said, 'Yes, Mike understands that very well, don't you dear'.

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Sorry after I wrote that post I felt like I gate crashed your thread, sorry didnt mean that

I have the same veiw as you though .....

when I goto "work" I can be totally sexy, naughty, and be desired but when I am in my normal world I have far to much to do/sort out that I dont have the time to think about sex let alone do it......sorry guys I know you like to think we are like that

when I started a relationship with a guy I started to resent my job because of how much it upset him..... I cut down my hours then stopped it compleatly...but it made me loose "who I am" and he didnt like the person I became

he left me for another working girl would you believe, and left me with no work and I got into debt.....

this work is who I am... I love it and I cant be looked after nor can I be fixed I get what I need from this kind of work.... PRAISE! lol

also I want to show you this video...........

another of the reasons it will never work with a working girl, is ........ because one day you will be invited to a wedding, you suddenly realise that you cant ask your working girl girlfriend to go with you because she might have slept with half the guests!

xxx Sarah B

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In my case ...no.

After over 3 years of seeing her in various parlours and hotels and then her various flats, and going on holiday together as friends on a couple of occasions, not to mention my spending nearly £100k, she moved in for 4 months. Within a week she moved into one of the spare rooms. She did absolutely no house work. I did all her washing. She broke everything that she touched....LCD TV, stereo system, shower, kettle. washing machine etc etc. She was also messy and untidy.

Sex was very irregular and occasional....but still good. Sometimes she made me feel guilty if I asked.

After 4 months (and a petty row where she'd been busting for an argument all week) she moved to her parents. Came back 9 months later for a month. Even though she didn't like doing "A" she said that she would with me if I wanted, but it didn't really appeal to me. On the last Sunday at my place she said perhaps she could come to tea one Sunday to meet my parents. Later in bed she offered (without any suggestion on my part) to go on the pill and we could dispense with condoms.

The very next day she went back to a parlour to earn some money and met some guy who distributed cards for the parlour. He's a heroin addict who's been in and out of prison since his teens and who likes to use her as a punch-bag. Two and a half years later after she left I'm left wondering where did all the fantasy go wrong, and where did all my money go.

Never again!!

as for this ...... I get the feeling I know who you are talking about... if not then this must be a common thing for girls to do..... not me I might add....

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Hi Pru

I hope you don't mind my late reply.

I've had 2 "fuck buddies" who were WG's. I guess I was lucky in that in both cases it was a great experience. Rather like your regular I would call when I was in the vicinity and if either was free we would meet up for lunch/dinner or sometimes just a walk. Usually but not always followed by some great sex.

They never asked for payment but I would buy occassional presents and once one was short and asked for some money but that was only once in 3 years.

Both have now left the country, one to look after a sick mother and another to marry. Both keep in touch, and the one that is married said the other day she was bored so would I visit? I did repeat to her that she said she would be faithful, she laughed and said but she needed a good fucking. So I'm off to see her.

I now have one civilian fuck buddy and that is incredibly more complicated to manage than the WG's.

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Hi Pru

I hope you don't mind my late reply.

I've had 2 "fuck buddies" who were WG's. I guess I was lucky in that in both cases it was a great experience. Rather like your regular I would call when I was in the vicinity and if either was free we would meet up for lunch/dinner or sometimes just a walk. Usually but not always followed by some great sex.

They never asked for payment but I would buy occassional presents and once one was short and asked for some money but that was only once in 3 years.

Both have now left the country, one to look after a sick mother and another to marry. Both keep in touch, and the one that is married said the other day she was bored so would I visit? I did repeat to her that she said she would be faithful, she laughed and said but she needed a good fucking. So I'm off to see her.

I now have one civilian fuck buddy and that is incredibly more complicated to manage than the WG's.

To answer your questions: the sex was fabulous nothing off the menu because I wasn't paying.

When we used to go out they dressed like any normal woman, but 1 degree sexier invariably "designer". So their jeans would be skin tight, or the top would be sheer. Nothing you couldn't see everyday in most advertising agencies, I know because I used to work in a few.

Activities: drearingly normal, dinner, films & a few times a play, but lots of fun. The only thing of course was "work" was never discussed, mine or theirs.

Hope that helps........

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I had a girlfriend who was/is an escort escort, we were together for 4-5 months. The first time i met her as escort/client the sex was great! But after say 2 months the sex was boring to be honest.

Some days she had a lot of clients so at night in bed together she was either too tired or too saw for me she just wanted a cuddle. She never wanted anal sex even though she does it for extra with clients. I was her driver whenever she had an outcall or an overnight so she didnt need to bother with taxi's so she'd dress up at her place in tight mini dresses, stockings, high heels, id drop her off at the clients place. Was actually quite fun.

Sexually, the only things i loved about our relationship is i didnt need to use condoms (she always insists condoms with clients) for sex. And she gives an amazing blow job and swallowed every drop.

As i got to know her more, i found she was mentally unwell, from what id gathered i got the impression that she used to sleep with her dad when she was a teenager, her parents had split up years ago probably because of what went on. Her personality was just too weird for me after i got to know her.

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another of the reasons it will never work with a working girl, is ........ because one day you will be invited to a wedding, you suddenly realise that you cant ask your working girl girlfriend to go with you because she might have slept with half the guests!

I think reading this is possibly the single biggest reason that WG / Punter relationships are a bad idea, you have to prepare yourself for that moment of being outed, or back away from normal social contact.

Food for thought indeed!

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but most men don’t wash it after they pee, and that is normally the last thing you did before you got into bed...its not nice!

A squeeze and a few shakes and the old boy is good to go. I can't hang him over the sink basin and wash him. Mind you it must be worse with flappage down there as you have to wipe. A few shakes wouldn't work. Women are strange and complicated beings - they've cost me a fortune in Escorts.

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