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Defining Trafficking

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The Palermo protocol lists 3 examples, coercion of victim, deception of same, and payment to 3rd party (e.g. parent) who has power to make the victim comply. The litmus test is that of free will.

It is not the same as people-smuggling, for which there is a separate Palermo protocol. Nor should it be. Trafficking has nothing to do with distance. If a girl is abducted from 2 Acacia Gardens, taken a few feet next door to No. 4 and there forced to have sex with punters, she has been trafficked. Whereas a girl in Shanghai who agrees a £30k bond to be smuggled across the globe, into the UK where she knows she will be working as a prostitute to repay the bond, has done so of her own free will and, IMHO, cannot be said to have been trafficked.

There is an issue with deception, and in cases where the girl genuinely did not realise that the only way to speedily repay the smuggling bond was to prostitute herself, then allowance has to be made for naivete and she could be regarded as having been trafficked by deception.

So how do the foreign girls analyse out.

The EE girls don't need to pay a smuggling bond. Very commonplace.

Non-EE girls divide into 2 groups.

The larger group consists of girls who jet in on temp visas, harvest as fast as they can, and jet back out, capital duly accummulated. They too seem to be everywhere.

The smaller group have chosen the smuggling/bond route and earn their money less bond repayments and agency management fees. When the bond is repaid they are then free to operate as independants, which some choose to do, or stay with the agency, continuing to pay the management fee element only, and some go that route.

The smallest group of the lot by far are those that are here against their will. Perhaps 1% of the total, and, pace MrMagoo, that is still 1% too many. They tend to operate at the discount end of the off-street segment. Many of their customers are the type of scum that do not care too much about the provenance of the girl as long as they get their end away cheaply. I cannot imagine too many of them contributing to this form, although the odd FR appears that makes me shudder when they describe the girl as seeming distressed.

In practical terms what can be done. All we as punters can do is, if and when we come across it, get onto Crimestoppers pronto. Common sense targeted policing, and draconian sentencing to disincentivise genuine traffickers, and naming and shaming of any punters, pour encourager les autres, caught in the type of prison brothel where the girls have clearly been trafficked, would all help.

However I'm unconvinced that it can ever be completely eradicated as long as there is money to be made, gangsters that are desperate enough, and a small band of punters who frankly are no better than those who prey on street girls.

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..... a girl in Shanghai who agrees a £30k bond to be smuggled across the globe, into the UK where she knows she will be working as a prostitute to repay the bond, has done so of her own free will and, IMHO, cannot be said to have been trafficked.

In principle I'd agree, but you must add, as uacceptable, any situation where the bond proves considerably harder to repay than the girl supposed, owing to a propensity to accrue extra charges. And, on this, she is very vulnerable since, unlike the EE-EU girl, her immigration status is illegal. Perhaps we'd do better to do what Singapore does (and, I think, Japan) in issuing short term 'entertainment' visas.

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However I'm unconvinced that it can ever be completely eradicated as long as there is money to be made, gangsters that are desperate enough, and a small band of punters who frankly are no better than those who prey on street girls.

The analogy with Prohibition in USA in the 1920s bears repeating. When alcohol was illegal, there were plenty of gansters ready to supply the demand. The gangsters got rich and the law got made a laughing-stock. There was little quality control of the product, a massive amount of potential tax revenue was missed, the police wasted a lot of time and effort and corruption and hypocrisy in legal and governmental circles were rife. In the end, the whole sorry shambles fell apart because it was simply unworkable.

Much of the same could be said to apply to the current situation with the sex trade. If it were not so hedged about with restrictive laws and moral indignation, everyone would be better off, IMO.

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Great post.

The evidence suggests the coerced and bonded women are part of the underground of illegal immigrant communities and not part of the mainstream punting industry. Whenever there has been raids in Hull it is linked to Chinese or Albanian gangs, at venues unknown on local forums.

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The Palermo protocol lists 3 examples, coercion of victim, deception of same, and payment to 3rd party (e.g. parent) who has power to make the victim comply. The litmus test is that of free will.

It is not the same as people-smuggling, for which there is a separate Palermo protocol. Nor should it be. Trafficking has nothing to do with distance. If a girl is abducted from 2 Acacia Gardens, taken a few feet next door to No. 4 and there forced to have sex with punters, she has been trafficked. Whereas a girl in Shanghai who agrees a £30k bond to be smuggled across the globe, into the UK where she knows she will be working as a prostitute to repay the bond, has done so of her own free will and, IMHO, cannot be said to have been trafficked.

There is an issue with deception, and in cases where the girl genuinely did not realise that the only way to speedily repay the smuggling bond was to prostitute herself, then allowance has to be made for naivete and she could be regarded as having been trafficked by deception.

So how do the foreign girls analyse out.

The EE girls don't need to pay a smuggling bond. Very commonplace.

Non-EE girls divide into 2 groups.

The larger group consists of girls who jet in on temp visas, harvest as fast as they can, and jet back out, capital duly accummulated. They too seem to be everywhere.

The smaller group have chosen the smuggling/bond route and earn their money less bond repayments and agency management fees. When the bond is repaid they are then free to operate as independants, which some choose to do, or stay with the agency, continuing to pay the management fee element only, and some go that route.

The smallest group of the lot by far are those that are here against their will. Perhaps 1% of the total, and, pace MrMagoo, that is still 1% too many. They tend to operate at the discount end of the off-street segment. Many of their customers are the type of scum that do not care too much about the provenance of the girl as long as they get their end away cheaply. I cannot imagine too many of them contributing to this form, although the odd FR appears that makes me shudder when they describe the girl as seeming distressed.

In practical terms what can be done. All we as punters can do is, if and when we come across it, get onto Crimestoppers pronto. Common sense targeted policing, and draconian sentencing to disincentivise genuine traffickers, and naming and shaming of any punters, pour encourager les autres, caught in the type of prison brothel where the girls have clearly been trafficked, would all help.

However I'm unconvinced that it can ever be completely eradicated as long as there is money to be made, gangsters that are desperate enough, and a small band of punters who frankly are no better than those who prey on street girls.

This is the most sensible post on this controversial topic that I have seen in some time. It deserves a 'Sticky' as a Post of Distinction. I am not optimistic that it will be universally acclaimed on this board, but we live in hope.:D

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Whereas a girl in Shanghai who agrees a £30k bond to be smuggled across the globe, into the UK where she knows she will be working as a prostitute to repay the bond, has done so of her own free will and, IMHO, cannot be said to have been trafficked.
If she is free at any time to choose another way to repay the bond than by working as a prostitute, then no, I wouldn't call it trafficking. If someone holds her in a debt lock and gives her no choice in how to repay it, then yes, she is trafficked.

I read about a bunch of Polish girls prostitutes who were recruited to German brothels this way. The brothel manager lended them money so they could afford to move to M

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The Palermo protocol lists 3 examples, coercion of victim, deception of same, and payment to 3rd party (e.g. parent) who has power to make the victim comply. The litmus test is that of free will.

It is not the same as people-smuggling, for which there is a separate Palermo protocol. Nor should it be. Trafficking has nothing to do with distance. If a girl is abducted from 2 Acacia Gardens, taken a few feet next door to No. 4 and there forced to have sex with punters, she has been trafficked. Whereas a girl in Shanghai who agrees a £30k bond to be smuggled across the globe, into the UK where she knows she will be working as a prostitute to repay the bond, has done so of her own free will and, IMHO, cannot be said to have been trafficked.

There is an issue with deception, and in cases where the girl genuinely did not realise that the only way to speedily repay the smuggling bond was to prostitute herself, then allowance has to be made for naivete and she could be regarded as having been trafficked by deception.

So how do the foreign girls analyse out.

The EE girls don't need to pay a smuggling bond. Very commonplace.

Non-EE girls divide into 2 groups.

The larger group consists of girls who jet in on temp visas, harvest as fast as they can, and jet back out, capital duly accummulated. They too seem to be everywhere.

The smaller group have chosen the smuggling/bond route and earn their money less bond repayments and agency management fees. When the bond is repaid they are then free to operate as independants, which some choose to do, or stay with the agency, continuing to pay the management fee element only, and some go that route.

The smallest group of the lot by far are those that are here against their will. Perhaps 1% of the total, and, pace MrMagoo, that is still 1% too many. They tend to operate at the discount end of the off-street segment. Many of their customers are the type of scum that do not care too much about the provenance of the girl as long as they get their end away cheaply. I cannot imagine too many of them contributing to this form, although the odd FR appears that makes me shudder when they describe the girl as seeming distressed.

In practical terms what can be done. All we as punters can do is, if and when we come across it, get onto Crimestoppers pronto. Common sense targeted policing, and draconian sentencing to disincentivise genuine traffickers, and naming and shaming of any punters, pour encourager les autres, caught in the type of prison brothel where the girls have clearly been trafficked, would all help.

However I'm unconvinced that it can ever be completely eradicated as long as there is money to be made, gangsters that are desperate enough, and a small band of punters who frankly are no better than those who prey on street girls.

Interesting and I'd wholeheartedly endorse all of your solutions. It's also heartening to see a punter on here who accepts that - as punting is for the most part underground due to its strange legal and social status - that there is an onus on the punter to punt as ethically as he can (I could drag up stuff from the other thread, but let's just say that moral objections are few and far between on these forums, and usually come from WG's if anyone).

I've no doubt you're sincere, but what are your 'figures' (i.e. bigger group/smaller group/1%) based on? Hearsay, what you reckon, or research of some description?

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This is the most sensible post on this controversial topic that I have seen in some time. It deserves a 'Sticky' as a Post of Distinction. I am not optimistic that it will be universally acclaimed on this board, but we live in hope.:)

Let's try it for a week and see how it goes. :D

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Interesting and I'd wholeheartedly endorse all of your solutions. It's also heartening to see a punter on here who accepts that - as punting is for the most part underground due to its strange legal and social status - that there is an onus on the punter to punt as ethically as he can (I could drag up stuff from the other thread, but let's just say that moral objections are few and far between on these forums, and usually come from WG's if anyone).

I've no doubt you're sincere, but what are your 'figures' (i.e. bigger group/smaller group/1%) based on? Hearsay, what you reckon, or research of some description?

It's in various threads passim. Can't come back to you right now as busy at work, but will dig out what I can find and come back by the end of the weekend. Promise.

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In principle I'd agree, but you must add, as uacceptable, any situation where the bond proves considerably harder to repay than the girl supposed, owing to a propensity to accrue extra charges. And, on this, she is very vulnerable since, unlike the EE-EU girl, her immigration status is illegal. Perhaps we'd do better to do what Singapore does (and, I think, Japan) in issuing short term 'entertainment' visas.

Fair point well made.

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If she is free at any time to choose another way to repay the bond than by working as a prostitute, then no, I wouldn't call it trafficking. If someone holds her in a debt lock and gives her no choice in how to repay it, then yes, she is trafficked.

Yes agree she has to have option to have genuine change of mind or she is traffficked. Free will again.

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Rock solid post, well deserving sticky status.

Non-EE girls divide into 2 groups.

The larger group consists of girls who jet in on temp visas, harvest as fast as they can, and jet back out, capital duly accummulated. They too seem to be everywhere.

The smaller group have chosen the smuggling/bond route and earn their money less bond repayments and agency management fees. When the bond is repaid they are then free to operate as independants, which some choose to do, or stay with the agency, continuing to pay the management fee element only, and some go that route.

We might add a third group that falls between the other two in the non-EE category, those that come in on legitimate visas under their own steam and then find ways and means to stay on, legally, or possibly illegally, but all of their own free will. This would cover the longer-term regular girls on the Oriental circuits, and quite a few independents.

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Rock solid post, well deserving sticky status.

We might add a third group that falls between the other two in the non-EE category, those that come in on legitimate visas under their own steam and then find ways and means to stay on, legally, or possibly illegally, but all of their own free will. This would cover the longer-term regular girls on the Oriental circuits, and quite a few independents.

Agreed. Over the years, I have come across a few Thai ladies who married Brits and legally immigrated here, only to be dumped by said Brit husbands later. Since they may well have met their erstwhile spouse in Thailand while participating in the sensual services industry, what better way to cover expenses here than to resume their profession? Beats going back to Isaan and wading around in a rice paddy during the rainy season for a living.:D

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Let's try it for a week and see how it goes. :D
I actually meant to 'save' it for the edification of those who insist on making up their own definition of 'trafficking' on the trot, to suit their own biases (ideally, including the Home Secretary).

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There are two kinds of trafficking, one more acceptable than the other.

1) Where girls are tricked into going to another country with the promise of a legitimate job and then forced into prostitution, they could have their passport taken away and receive very little money, they would end up being little more than sex slaves and of course that is totally unacceptable.

2) Where girls are "assisted" to enter a country illegally to work as prostitutes, they are more than willing to do this and are free to leave at any time.

It is not hard to work out why they would want to do this, take girls from Thailand, in Pattaya they would so all nighters for £20, here in the UK they would earn £60 for an hour in a brothel (half of the £120 fee).

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I've no doubt you're sincere, but what are your 'figures' (i.e. bigger group/smaller group/1%) based on? Hearsay, what you reckon, or research of some description?

Police Operations Pentameter 1 & 2 found c. 250 forced wg's out of alleged (if dubious) total of 80000 wgs in the UK = 0.3%. The numbers that the Poppy Project have found to help (as against agitate about) are equally tiny.

Either the constabulary are very inefficient or the 1% figure isn't far out. No one disputes it's 1% too many---- but the issue is how to reduce it without disrupting the lives of everyone else involved, willingly, in this business.

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Agreed. Over the years, I have come across a few Thai ladies who married Brits and legally immigrated here, only to be dumped by said Brit husbands later.

Of course it can often work the other way as well, young Thai girl gets married to old British guy and then dumps HIM once she has the full legal right to stay here. :D:(

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Of course it can often work the other way as well, young Thai girl gets married to old British guy and then dumps HIM once she has the full legal right to stay here. :):(
Very rare. Thai girls rate 'security' far above 'affairs of the heart'. The exceptions would more likely be Thais who got homesick for family and friends and returned to LOS on their own.

They also may have had enough of the weather on days like today!:D

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Police Operations Pentameter 1 & 2 found c. 250 forced wg's out of alleged (if dubious) total of 80000 wgs in the UK = 0.3%. The numbers that the Poppy Project have found to help (as against agitate about) are equally tiny.

Either the constabulary are very inefficient or the 1% figure isn't far out. No one disputes it's 1% too many---- but the issue is how to reduce it without disrupting the lives of everyone else involved, willingly, in this business.

To be fair I don't really think that you can take the Poppy Project figures into consideration. They are vastly underfunded and when we contacted them to help some trafficked girls, we were told that at that time they only had 11 beds in the whole of the UK and they weren't just for trafficked women and promptly turned away. I don't think they can possibly have a clue as to whats really going on out there and rely on people like myself and other girls in the industry for information.

It is true that Parameter found nowhere near as many trafficked women as they expected, something that I think HH will certainly have to play down at some point in the future...lol

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To be fair I don't really think that you can take the Poppy Project figures into consideration. They are vastly underfunded and when we contacted them to help some trafficked girls, we were told that at that time they only had 11 beds in the whole of the UK

Their accounts are available via the Charity Commissioners website. They get a Home Office Grant of £1.2 m p.a. plus some share of other income to Eaves as a whole. If they can only help 11 women on the basis of £1.2 m, I'm unimpressed. They seem well-able to fund the generation of propaganda and doubtful statistics on trafficking.

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Every worker in any form of personal touch therapy has the right to say no to penetrative sex at any time.

It is a question of consent.

Cionsent between adults in private.

The problem with trafficked women is that they have no ability to say no, whether from economic pressure, or violence to them or others, or abuse of some vulnerability from which they suffer.

Whether these unfortunates are from the same economic area as we are in is of concern

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If a brothel manager picks up a girl from the station, Is that traffiking?

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there are migrant sex workers who although illegal immigrants have been trafficked voluntarily to earn more in the uk.

there is a clear distinction between voluntary & forced trafficking just as there is between voluntary prostitution & forced prostitution

as we know,it is trafficking for prostitution that gets all the headlines,when women are trafficked to work in farms,factorys,cockle picking for low pay & poor conditions, its hardly mentioned

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There are two kinds of trafficking, one more acceptable than the other.

1) Where girls are tricked into going to another country with the promise of a legitimate job and then forced into prostitution, they could have their passport taken away and receive very little money, they would end up being little more than sex slaves and of course that is totally unacceptable.

2) Where girls are "assisted" to enter a country illegally to work as prostitutes, they are more than willing to do this and are free to leave at any time.

It is not hard to work out why they would want to do this, take girls from Thailand, in Pattaya they would so all nighters for £20, here in the UK they would earn £60 for an hour in a brothel (half of the £120 fee).

This is a great definition!

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So what are you going to do to supportthe legittamate service providers of this website.

So far I've only experienced hated. I've been turned down by guys who took your add years on approach. They've turned up and npt been able to proceed because I looked too young.

So I give up.

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