redsalford

Brothel /parlour Raided By Police Whilst Your Inside It.

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Has any one been inside a place whilst its been raided by the police. Whats happens to you . Any one had it happen you you mid punt. Im cautious of this happening.

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It's a very unlikely event, don't let your caution stop you punting.

A few years back I used to attend some "blue" full service strip club events. Full sex was available from the strippers during private dances and 1 or 2 guys would be brought on stage and fucked in front of the audience.

One night it was raided by the police.

From what I understand, there were a number if false names given out by people, myself included.

Regards,

Mike (maybe)

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Has any one been inside a place whilst its been raided by the police. Whats happens to you . Any one had it happen you you mid punt. Im cautious of this happening.

Firstly never give a false name to the police this would be an offence in itself and if they check you out will not go down well.

Assuming the WGs in the Establishment dont tell the police they are being coerced or been trafficked in which case you could be in a whole world of shit, you have nothing to worry about and havent committed a crime. Be polite but tell them nothing beyond your personal details.

Edited by smiths

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Firstly never give a false name to the police this would be an offence in itself and if they check you out will not go down well.

Assuming the WGs in the Establishment dont tell the police they are being coerced or been trafficked in which case you could be in a whole world of shit, you have nothing to worry about and havent committed a crime. Be polite but tell them nothing beyond your personal details.

What offence is that then ?

Unless you are cautioned you do not have to say anything at all. Even after caution you have the right to remain silent.

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Firstly never give a false name to the police this would be an offence in itself and if they check you out will not go down well.

Assuming the WGs in the Establishment dont tell the police they are being coerced or been trafficked in which case you could be in a whole world of shit, you have nothing to worry about and havent committed a crime. Be polite but tell them nothing beyond your personal details.

I believe a lot of the people arrested have been arrested due to the beliefs and prejudices of the officers involved i.e they've already decided that because it's a Thai brothel that they're likely to be forced etc.

So if you're in a Thai brothel when it's raided I think you'd probably be arrested by default unless the girl specifically said she was fine, and I don't think they question them too much on site they usually hand them straight to immigration AFAIK.

If you ARE arrested in a brothel employing Thai/EE women then here's a few questions that I would ask.

1)What's your "reasonable suspicion" that they're subjected to force etc. based on?

a)If they answer with something SPECIFIC to the girl then ask what the maid was arrested for....

I'll bet it was for nothing more than assisting in the management of a brothel, or possibly controlling prostitution.

In which case you ask why YOU are the only one being arrested for an offence that suggests force.

b)If they start talking about her being Thai/Albanian or whatever and saying that therefore she's probably trafficked and may be forced

You should reply "racial profiling it is then" and thank them for their honesty... :lol:

Again, ask them why you're the only one under arrest for an offence that suggests force....when the only person who could be holding them prisoner i.e the maid is only under arrest for assisting in the management etc.

2)If they don't have any real info on the girl and seem to be just randomly speculating on her circumstances you should ask why you're under arrest.....they may have said that you're under arrest to assist in the prompt and effective investigation of the offence.

In which case you should respond that

They don't have enough to charge you and

They can't ask you any questions as you clearly wouldn't know anything...if they thought you did know she was forced then surely rape or sexual assault should have been the offence you were arrested for.

3) So repeat, "Why am I under arrest on the basis of random speculation when I clearly can't assist in your inquiry? I was at a brothel. Not illegal. I paid for sex. Not illegal. She seemed happy to be there and gave no indication to me that she was under duress. And none to you apparently."

4)Ask where the girl is. I'll lay good money that she's likely been handed over to immigration already. In which case they'll probably never see her again. I'll also lay good money that they can't tell you what the girl's name is without scrabbling through paperwork. So again this will reinforce your questions as to why you're under arrest. They haven't got the evidence from the girl. They're not going to get the evidence from you as the moment you supply any you'd actually be guilty of a different offence....and since you haven't been arrested for that offence it would be unlawful for them to question you about it.

State that the offence is such that in your opinion if they've got grounds to arrest you they should already have grounds to charge you.

If they offer you a caution at any stage, refuse it and tell them that you'll see them in court. No one has been taken to court for this offence, and I'm 100% certain that in the cases where they've given cautions they've done so by simply filling the suspect's head with horror stories as to what "typically" happens to Thai/EE WGs and repeating that it's a strict liability offence so it doesn't matter whether he knew.

If they start talking about strict liability simply point out that this means it doesn't matter if you knew, it doesn't mean that they don't need to have evidence that the crime happened. Keep at them to provide specific evidence relating to the specific girl you were caught with. No matter what, do not accept a caution. In fact you could even say that it's unfair to issue a caution for an offence which is untested in court.

I have a whole other list of things to say if it ever gets near court regarding the legality of the offence itself....needless to say it's on very dodgy ground.

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What offence is that then ?

Unless you are cautioned you do not have to say anything at all. Even after caution you have the right to remain silent.

There's perverting the course of justice, but I think that only applies if you lie in relation to an offence.

Since you're not under suspicion of committing an offence, I'm not sure whether it would apply here.

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What offence is that then ?

Unless you are cautioned you do not have to say anything at all. Even after caution you have the right to remain silent.

Yes, but you don't have the right to lie to the police. Which is what giving a false name is.

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Yes, but you don't have the right to lie to the police. Which is what giving a false name is.

Indeed.

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What offence is that then ?

Unless you are cautioned you do not have to say anything at all. Even after caution you have the right to remain silent.

Edited by smiths

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I'd say that your chances of being caught up in a brothel raid are pretty minimal and your chances of being arrested are even less.

Anecdotal evidence would suggest that most punters are asked to get dressed and leave. Occasionally punters are asked to give their name and address. Personally I would do that and without fuss.

If the police aren't going to arrest you then they have no right to request your name and it's not an offence to refuse. However, if that happens then there's a chance that they may say that they are investigating brothel-keeping or punters paying for the services of prostitutes subjected to force etc (ie the new s.53A offence), and they need to know that you're not involved. So there's then the danger that they may choose to arrest you under section 24(5) PACE 1984 to ascertain identity or for a "prompt and effective investigation". The police often use the appropriately named Ways and Means Act -ie. if they want something then they will stretch the law and find the way and means of doing it :D . Incidentally, it's just a police expression - there's no such real Act.

It would be a bit of a gamble to give a false name. You could get away with it, or they could ask for proof of ID. If you're caught or suspected of lying then you're facing a charge of obstructing a constable in the execution of his duty (section 89 Police Act 1996). If you persist in the lie down the station (eg after charge) then that could become perverting the course of justice, which is even more serious. Giving false details could also be a ground to refuse police bail, if charged - unlikely though. Remember though, they may have already noted your registration number if you parked nearby.

I wouldn't worry too much about it because the chances of it happening are very remote. At the same time I do think that it's sensible to give it a little thought - juat in case. Personally I would give my name, address and dob, if requested - but other than that I would be very vague and unhelpul (not in an obvious way) if they asked me about the brothel, owners, number of girls etc.

If you want to know a little more then have a look at the Legalities and Legislation section. There have been a couple of similar threads in the past, especially around about this time last year when the new offence was introduced. Here's a couple:

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I'd say that your chances of being caught up in a brothel raid are pretty minimal and your chances of being arrested are even less.

Anecdotal evidence would suggest that most punters are asked to get dressed and leave. Occasionally punters are asked to give their name and address. Personally I would do that and without fuss.

If the police aren't going to arrest you then they have no right to request your name and it's not an offence to refuse. However, if that happens then there's a chance that they may say that they are investigating brothel-keeping or punters paying for the services of prostitutes subjected to force etc (ie the new s.53A offence), and they need to know that you're not involved. So there's then the danger that they may choose to arrest you under section 24(5) PACE 1984 to ascertain identity or for a "prompt and effective investigation". The police often use the appropriately named Ways and Means Act -ie. if they want something then they will stretch the law and find the way and means of doing it :D . Incidentally, it's just a police expression - there's no such real Act.

It would be a bit of a gamble to give a false name. You could get away with it, or they could ask for proof of ID. If you're caught or suspected of lying then you're facing a charge of obstructing a constable in the execution of his duty (section 89 Police Act 1996). If you persist in the lie down the station (eg after charge) then that could become perverting the course of justice, which is even more serious. Giving false details could also be a ground to refuse police bail, if charged - unlikely though. Remember though, they may have already noted your registration number if you parked nearby.

I wouldn't worry too much about it because the chances of it happening are very remote. At the same time I do think that it's sensible to give it a little thought - juat in case. Personally I would give my name, address and dob, if requested - but other than that I would be very vague and unhelpul (not in an obvious way) if they asked me about the brothel, owners, number of girls etc.

If you want to know a little more then have a look at the Legalities and Legislation section. There have been a couple of similar threads in the past, especially around about this time last year when the new offence was introduced. Here's a couple:

Excellent detailed information as ever Silverado, i was hoping you would share your knowledge on this thread.:)

Edited by smiths

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A decade or so ago, police turned up whilst I was in a parlour in Stoke. Receptionist came in mid-massage and told us to stay quiet and in the room. It wasn't a raid, they were after some information on someone or something. They left and I was ok.

Still, scared the hell out of me! Never been in trouble with the police. Didn't stop me visiting parlours though.

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What offence is that then ?

Ho, yes, Sir!

How about, Police Act 1996,

* Section 89(2) makes it an offence to resist or wilfully obstruct a constable in the execution of his duty.

The key point in either case will be whether or not the constable was acting in the execution of his duty – and therefore lawfully - at the time of the offence. There is no statutory definition of a police officer’s duty, but it has been said by the courts to include taking all steps necessary to protect life and limb, to keep the peace, to prevent crime and to detect crime.

I assume that it probably is a copper's duty (if the Skipper thinks it a good idea that day) to do over a brothel, check the WGs for coercion, or being trafficked, and in the process to identify potential witnesses? Of course one (slightly shitty) option is to give a real name and address (but not your own) and let him sort it out at his leisure!

....and, er, yes, I have been in a brothel (in Singapore) when it was raided by the Military Police, years ago. I was naked in the shower afterwards. There was a set of dog-tags on the hook. I've always wondered whether if I'd snatched them, put them on and tried to say that I was him, it would have worked.....

Edited by Irgendeiner

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What offence is that then ?

Unless you are cautioned you do not have to say anything at all. Even after caution you have the right to remain silent.

As detailed above. As your an Establishment owner perhaps reading up on it might be a good idea, surely better to know the ins and outs of the laws and what the police can and cant do in relation to this industry than be in blissful ignorance, but up to you of course.

Edited by smiths

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Ho, yes, Sir!

How about, Police Act 1996,

* Section 89(2) makes it an offence to resist or wilfully obstruct a constable in the execution of his duty.

I assume that it probably is a copper's duty (if the Skipper thinks it a good idea that day) to do over a brothel, check the WGs for coercion, or being trafficked, and in the process to identify potential witnesses? Of course one (slightly shitty) option is to give a real name and address (but not your own) and let him sort it out at his leisure!

....and, er, yes, I have been in a brothel (in Singapore) when it was raided by the Military Police, years ago. I was naked in the shower afterwards. There was a set of dog-tags on the hook. I've always wondered whether if I'd snatched them, put them on and tried to say that I was him, it would have worked.....

More good information. :)

Edited by smiths

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Whilst everyone is entitled to remain silent you are I believe required to confirm your name, date of birth and Address.

A bloke I used to work got arrested for rowdy behavior during a night out in Newcastle some years back.

He figured he would refuse to give his name and after 24 hours he would be released.

WRONG

After many hours of frustrated coopers asking his name and getting no reply

He was told in no uncertain terms that if he didnt tell them his name/address he would be going to the local magistrate first thing in the morning.

At this point my former co-worker gave in and told them his name.

As to what would have happened if he hadnt complied............I dunno..........can anyone enlighten me?

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As detailed above. As your an Establishment owner perhaps reading up on it might be a good idea, surely better to know the ins and outs of the laws and what the police can and cant do in relation to this industry than be in blissful ignorance, but up to you of course.

I don't need to read up on the law as I was a policeman for 11 years, so have a practical working knowledge of the law and how it is implemented in reality. Secondly it's not an offence to be a client in a brothel unless the girls there are there against their will but that's a different thread altogether.

This is a common misconception. A police officer needs to be acting lawfully before they start questioning you, if you remained silent or gave a false name nothing would happen unless they had a very strong suspicion the girls were being forced to work in said establishment. In the case of House of Divine I can assure you that is not the case. Unless you are dealing with dedicate Vice Squad officers then you'll be lucky if the officers involved have spent more than an hour reading up on the associated laws in The Sexual Offences Act prior to knocking on the door.

Ask any serving officer how many people they have arrested and successfully prosecuted for perverting the course of justice by giving a false name, zero will be the answer unless it was added onto a more serious charge for which the offender was charged. Chances are 9 out of 10 times it would be dropped by the CPS for a total waste of public funds. People on here love it when an 'innocent' comes on here with a genuine question as they can scaremonger about brothels.

My advice is steer clear of anywhere where you think there is the slightest chance of girls being trafficked. Use boards like this to find out a locations rep and that of their owners. No one can guarantee you against a police raid, even brothels that tout 'licenses' (there is no licence for running a brothel) are subject to police checks. Look in the local press and see how many brothels have been raided in that area in the last 5 years and what the net result was of those raids too.

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Another old thread with some useful links.

Providing Name & Address

If a Police Officer asks you to provide your name, address, DOB and most other personal identifying details, You are entitled to refuse to provide them unless you are arrested or driving a motor vehicle. Under no circumstances provide false details, that is an arrestable offence; refusal in not grounds for arrest.

A Police Officer can ask you to 'account for yourself'. If you are a working girl or punter in a brothel you are not doing anything illegal. Therefore Keep it simple, tell them you are not doing anything illegal.

Association of Police Authorities - Know your rights leaflet.

CAB Police Powers guide.

I'm wondering if we should produce something like this Bust Card for photographers.

Re-reading this got me wondering if a brothel counts as a public place with regard to accounting for yourself.

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I was in an Asian Massage place ( still negotiating ) in a small European country when it was visited by the " Polizei". The young plain clothes officer asked for the usual ID ( passport,where was I staying , etc., looked in my wallet, had rather a large amount of cash.) I said it was needed as I was going to get greedy and the place was not cheap. :P He kept my PP and asked me to go see him the next morning.

I duly rocked up at the appointed time , waited about 30 min ( the receptionist suggested I could go next door for a coffee if I wanted ! ) The young D arrived, apologised for the delay (!) and said they were investigating an illegal Asian gambling operation when they raided. Gave me my PP back, then said " Just a minute ". He went to his computer and went on-line, printed a page off which he handed to me................it was ............

The " Girls " listing from one of the ( many ) local clubs and his personal recommendation............. " She is very good .............!! :D :D

Some countries are so civilized ............. :D

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I don't need to read up on the law as I was a policeman for 11 years, so have a practical working knowledge of the law and how it is implemented in reality. Secondly it's not an offence to be a client in a brothel unless the girls there are there against their will but that's a different thread altogether.

This is a common misconception. A police officer needs to be acting lawfully before they start questioning you, if you remained silent or gave a false name nothing would happen unless they had a very strong suspicion the girls were being forced to work in said establishment. In the case of House of Divine I can assure you that is not the case. Unless you are dealing with dedicate Vice Squad officers then you'll be lucky if the officers involved have spent more than an hour reading up on the associated laws in The Sexual Offences Act prior to knocking on the door.

Ask any serving officer how many people they have arrested and successfully prosecuted for perverting the course of justice by giving a false name, zero will be the answer unless it was added onto a more serious charge for which the offender was charged. Chances are 9 out of 10 times it would be dropped by the CPS for a total waste of public funds. People on here love it when an 'innocent' comes on here with a genuine question as they can scaremonger about brothels.

My advice is steer clear of anywhere where you think there is the slightest chance of girls being trafficked. Use boards like this to find out a locations rep and that of their owners. No one can guarantee you against a police raid, even brothels that tout 'licenses' (there is no licence for running a brothel) are subject to police checks. Look in the local press and see how many brothels have been raided in that area in the last 5 years and what the net result was of those raids too.

I have no way of knowing as a punter if any WG is being coerced or been trafficked unless they tell me or i believe its the case. Literally any WG could be being coerced by her partner for example and could tell this to the police when a place she is working at is raided. All a punter can do is use their best judgement. Who knows what really goes on behind the scenes in this industry for definite, not me, but i am prepared to punt anyway and at brothels. The rewards far outweigh the risks for me.

On this particular matter i would give my real details and no more till my solicitor advised me, lying about who i am is no advantage to me in my opinion and might, might being crucial, might cause me more trouble than giving my real name.

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Whilst everyone is entitled to remain silent you are I believe required to confirm your name, date of birth and Address.

No you don't. Not knowing the identity of the DP/accused is though a ground for refusal of bail - both by the police and the court.

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Another old thread with some useful links.

Re-reading this got me wondering if a brothel counts as a public place with regard to accounting for yourself.

Basically yes, beacuse some years back due to a maliscious allegation, I was subject to stop and account for yourself on private property on to which the general public were admitted.

In a nutshell a stop and account is being asked your name and address (mine was checked) and what you are doing. If the police are happy with the explanation then you are on your way like I was.

I suppose for the last bit you could always pull a 'no comment' if you are at risk of implicating yourself?

Edited by Sheepy11

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In a nutshell a stop and account is being asked your name and address (mine was checked) and what you are doing. If the police are happy with the explanation then you are on your way like I was.

I suppose for the last bit you could always pull a 'no comment' if you are at risk of implicating yourself?

You're not obliged to give your name and address on a "stop and account".

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What offence is that then ?

Unless you are cautioned you do not have to say anything at all. Even after caution you have the right to remain silent.

If an officer is in the lawful execution of his duty and you provide false details, you are wilfully obstructing the police and this is an offence. You can be arrested. Whether or not the CPS prosecute in the public interest is another matter entirely. Whether or not an officer would be keen or not to do this is another matter entirely.

I assume if an officer is raiding a parlour, they are there in execution of their duty and you may be under suspicion of a crime. Namely an offence under Section 14 of the Policing and Crime Act 2009. I'm not saying you would be guilty under say 53a, but surely the police can claim they are there in lawful execution of an investigation under this statute?

However, this does not alter the right to remain silent (dependant upon suspected criminal act). However, remaining silent and providing false details are two different issues.

Edited by nntt

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You're not obliged to give your name and address on a "stop and account".

You are obliged to give your name and address if asked by a policeman in Scotland.

So Scottish punters, don't try the silent route, they can pull you in just for that.

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