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josiebell

Criminal Record By Stealth?

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Hello,

I'm new to the forum so please be gentle with me :)

I was working in a small parlour recently when we were visited by the boys in blue for a 'routine check' and a pushy request for names and addresses. We were told that any personal info would not be added to any database and it was purely for Police info only....We all gave this info, albeit, reluctantly. I'm now regretting this as I have to apply for a Disclosure and have good reason to think this intelligence will be passed on to my employer. We were not charged or cautioned but I suspect that the plods were telling fibs about where our info was going to. Any info or help would be really appreciated.

J

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Are you in England & Wales or Scotland?

Do you know what type of CRB check may be required? Standard or enhanced?

Does the job entail contact with children or vulnerable adults, or any type of advanced vetting?

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Hi Silverado,

I'm in England. It's an Enhanced check for work dealing with lots of different age groups and problems.

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If it's Enhanced (and not Standard) then approved non-conviction information may be provided.

"The Chief Police Officer in each force will decide what, if any, information to provide considering if it is relevant, reasonable and proportionate. The decision to release this information depends on the relevance of the information to the specific position applied for."

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/agencies-public-bodies/crb/about-crb/what-we-do/non-conviction-information/

As to whether the information is included, my initial thought is that there is no reason why it should be. It does, however, depend on the police.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2009/jul/15/criminal-records-bureau-database

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Thanks for the feedback, Silverado. This is really bad news :(

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Never give any information to the authorities that you don't have and, in particular, don't trust the police.

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I hope that all's well for your application Josiebell.

Off the strict topic, but in keeping with its title: it's worth mentioning that a lot of people seem to be unaware that the Police often offer people a Caution rather than formally charging them. This is great for the Police box-ticking but.... it's not an 'easy way out' for those who accept the Caution to avoid the trouble of going to court even if they believe themselves innocent. A Caution is still a criminal record, and appears on all CRB checks.

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Why do the words Gestapo, KGB and Stasi pop into my mind when I read this thread?

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Thanks for all your replies. I won't be applying for that job and i'll be staying away from anything that needs an Enhanced check. Also i'm not confident about going through a routine check now. The plods made it clear they were intolerant of our working situation. God knows what kind of things they've added to their database?!

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Thanks for all your replies. I won't be applying for that job and i'll be staying away from anything that needs an Enhanced check. Also i'm not confident about going through a routine check now. The plods made it clear they were intolerant of our working situation. God knows what kind of things they've added to their database?!

Others will know the answer, but I'd have thought that invoking the Freedom of Information Act would enable you to see what they are holding on file about you? Or would that be Data Protection Act? Or neither?

Edited by pabulum

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Others will know the answer, but I'd have thought that invoking the Freedom of Information Act would enable you to see what they are holding on file about you? Or would that be Data Protection Act? Or neither?

Both the DPA and FoIA have exemptions for crime/law enforcement. You can make a Subject Access Request under the DPA to the police and they will supply a print-out of convictions/criminal record (if any). It won't reveal any other intelligence about yourself.

It's not possible to do a CRB check against yourself. Only an "umbrella organisation" can do this for a specific job role, although you could join an agency and ask them to do a search. Even if you get a negative search there's no guarantee that when you apply for an Enhanced CRB check at a later date that the individual who deals with the search will take the same view and not disclose it.

Personally I'm of the opinion that the police will not disclose it...but obviously I've got no way of confirming or guaranteeing it.

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Thanks for the clarification, Silverado.

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Re: Subject Access - i've had a quick look at some Police sites and I think Silverado is right. The Police are unlikely to disclose this information to me.

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Both the DPA and FoIA have exemptions for crime/law enforcement. You can make a Subject Access Request under the DPA to the police and they will supply a print-out of convictions/criminal record (if any). It won't reveal any other intelligence about yourself.

It's not possible to do a CRB check against yourself. Only an "umbrella organisation" can do this for a specific job role, although you could join an agency and ask them to do a search. Even if you get a negative search there's no guarantee that when you apply for an Enhanced CRB check at a later date that the individual who deals with the search will take the same view and not disclose it.

Personally I'm of the opinion that the police will not disclose it...but obviously I've got no way of confirming or guaranteeing it.

This is precisely what I am in the process of doing, because I want to see what's on file about me.

I went one step further and phoned my future governing body ( if that makes sense ) and without giving them

my name, informed them that I am an escort and am on police file as such and asked them if that would make any

difference to me in the future.

Their reply was astonishing and very encouraging, they said that it's not a crime and doesn't contravene their

professional code of conduct so it is of no relevance. I don't think they'd be too keen on my continuing to work

as an escort as a lucrative sideline though, once qualified. :D

Silverado do you know if the various police forces share information / intelligence such as the above ?

Is it a national database ? So, if I was to move from say, Glasgow to Cardiff would the information

follow me ?

SCOTPEP successfully lobbied both Lothian & Borders and Central police forces to

not disclose the information, but that still leaves six other forces in Scotland.

I found this on their website too re Freedom of Information - http://www.spsa.police.uk/foi - so I will put

in an application there too. As regards witholding information on foot of a request the site has this to say -

"Information may be withheld where we consider that disclosure may seriously prejudice law enforcement,

ongoing investigations, legal proceedings or our regulatory or enforcement activities, or where disclosure is otherwise prohibited by law.

We may also withhold information which may seriously prejudice the commercial

interests of any person or organisation, or where release would harm the physical or mental health of an individual."

Hmmmm.

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I hope that all's well for your application Josiebell.

Off the strict topic, but in keeping with its title: it's worth mentioning that a lot of people seem to be unaware that the Police often offer people a Caution rather than formally charging them. This is great for the Police box-ticking but.... it's not an 'easy way out' for those who accept the Caution to avoid the trouble of going to court even if they believe themselves innocent. A Caution is still a criminal record, and appears on all CRB checks.

Pabulum, I can catagorically say that your last sentence is wrong. Speaking from experience. A caution is not "a" criminal record. It would NOT appear on a CRB check.

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Josie, I have been in similar situation and have to say that nothing showed up on my CRB check- because you was not arrested and charged

with anything specific- it will not go on a CRB check.

When your employer applies for the enhanced disclosure- you can see for yourself. saying this- there is down the page of CRB I notice -

Protection of children/vulnerable adults list information- also other relevant information disclosed at the chief police officer(s) discretion-

but I would think again this applies to any previous convictions, cautions (as such depending on how serious/many factors) reprimands and final warnings.

I do not think there is a need to give your private personal info on being an escort to any future employer- as even though it should be treated as strictly

confidential information- you still do not know where that info may go- the last thing you need is starting a job and everyone knows your business that was discussed over a fag and coffee break. (lol sorry ok, worst case scenario but your personal business is just that).

Silverado has excellent knowledge/understanding of law so can give some very good advice to you.

Try not to worry too much I think if you have good intentions then everything else will fall into place. Good luck xxxx

Edited by natashasexy4uxx

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Ok ok ok it does say "cautions" on CRB check but I believe this is a "discretional" factor as stated.

My apologies Pabulum...........!

Edited by natashasexy4uxx

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Pabulum, I can catagorically say that your last sentence is wrong. Speaking from experience. A caution is not "a" criminal record. It would NOT appear on a CRB check.

Unfortunately a caution is a criminal record and I can assure you according to my CRB prior conviction... it does appear. Back to the point of the Enhanced CRB and non conviction information as with most things with the police it ENTIRELY depends on the police officer dealing with the request (thier attitudes and discretion) and the position your applying for.

If for example you were applying to work with vulnerable female children, some may well consider their inteligance of prostitution relevant for fear you would try and coerce others into the trade. We of course know this is rediculous but unfortunately there are some twisted people out there and some backward thinking police officers with strange idea's of how the world works that might consider it justified to release this information.

As for police saying information is confidential, that may well be the case to people outside the force but its frightening when you realise the sort of information they hold on people on the assurance that it doesnt really matter and you shouldnt worry about giving it etc. etc. etc. NEVER tell the police anything, they have no need for your real name and address and if they are not arresting you it shouldnt make the blindest bit of difference if your micky mouse or jack the ripper! Im not entirely sure and wouldnt mind knowing the proper answer but I wouldnt be convinced that you couldnt potentially be in trouble if you gave false information although if they are not arresting you then how would they know if you gave your real name or not... does that make sense? If the police ask for your real name and address do you have the right to refuse? I personally would have thought so but cant be sure. If it were me I would just say if your not arresting me for anything I havent done anything wrong and on that basis its none of your business what my real name is... but I do have a habit of putting my foot in it when it comes to the old bill and in my case they have my whole life on file now, lol!

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Unfortunately a caution is a criminal record and I can assure you according to my CRB prior conviction... it does appear. Back to the point of the Enhanced CRB and non conviction information as with most things with the police it ENTIRELY depends on the police officer dealing with the request (thier attitudes and discretion) and the position your applying for.

If for example you were applying to work with vulnerable female children, some may well consider their inteligance of prostitution relevant for fear you would try and coerce others into the trade. We of course know this is rediculous but unfortunately there are some twisted people out there and some backward thinking police officers with strange idea's of how the world works that might consider it justified to release this information.

As for police saying information is confidential, that may well be the case to people outside the force but its frightening when you realise the sort of information they hold on people on the assurance that it doesnt really matter and you shouldnt worry about giving it etc. etc. etc. NEVER tell the police anything, they have no need for your real name and address and if they are not arresting you it shouldnt make the blindest bit of difference if your micky mouse or jack the ripper! Im not entirely sure and wouldnt mind knowing the proper answer but I wouldnt be convinced that you couldnt potentially be in trouble if you gave false information although if they are not arresting you then how would they know if you gave your real name or not... does that make sense? If the police ask for your real name and address do you have the right to refuse? I personally would have thought so but cant be sure. If it were me I would just say if your not arresting me for anything I havent done anything wrong and on that basis its none of your business what my real name is... but I do have a habit of putting my foot in it when it comes to the old bill and in my case they have my whole life on file now, lol!

As I already pointed out Sasha- it all depends on discretion, and as in my post above- it really all depends on a lot of things wheather "cautions" go on record or not- all depending what the caution was for and so forth. Talking from personal experience myself having had caution- it has NOT appeared on my CRB.

Also, if a police officer, special constable/even plain clothed police- or anyone dealing with police force asks for your name- you should in my experience give it. I can only speak from experience when put in an awkward position not wanting to verify my identity. As you know Sasha, police can be extremely tricky and will go to low ends to get what they want- pulling anything out of the book etc,. to make things difficult if people do not comply with their rules and regulations.

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As you rightly say, cautions do form part of your criminal record and will be revealed on a CRB check. Cautions are not convictions but they constitute an admission of guilt. They are an out of court disposal and for police purposes are treated as a detection. Approximately 350,000 cautions are given a year and in the majority of cases the offender will have no idea of the problems that will be caused in the future by accepting one.

With the benefit of hindsight, as this was only a "friendly" visit by the police, and not a brothel raid, Josie shouldn't really have given them her name, or at the very least should have given them a false one. The police had no legal right to request her details and if there wasn't a raid (with arrests etc.) then there is nothing that the police could realistically have done. If the parlour had been raided then it probably wouldn't be a good idea to give a false name because there may have been consequences if found out, and a greater chance of being found out.

Unfortunately a caution is a criminal record and I can assure you according to my CRB prior conviction... it does appear. Back to the point of the Enhanced CRB and non conviction information as with most things with the police it ENTIRELY depends on the police officer dealing with the request (thier attitudes and discretion) and the position your applying for.

If for example you were applying to work with vulnerable female children, some may well consider their inteligance of prostitution relevant for fear you would try and coerce others into the trade. We of course know this is rediculous but unfortunately there are some twisted people out there and some backward thinking police officers with strange idea's of how the world works that might consider it justified to release this information.

As for police saying information is confidential, that may well be the case to people outside the force but its frightening when you realise the sort of information they hold on people on the assurance that it doesnt really matter and you shouldnt worry about giving it etc. etc. etc. NEVER tell the police anything, they have no need for your real name and address and if they are not arresting you it shouldnt make the blindest bit of difference if your micky mouse or jack the ripper! Im not entirely sure and wouldnt mind knowing the proper answer but I wouldnt be convinced that you couldnt potentially be in trouble if you gave false information although if they are not arresting you then how would they know if you gave your real name or not... does that make sense? If the police ask for your real name and address do you have the right to refuse? I personally would have thought so but cant be sure. If it were me I would just say if your not arresting me for anything I havent done anything wrong and on that basis its none of your business what my real name is... but I do have a habit of putting my foot in it when it comes to the old bill and in my case they have my whole life on file now, lol!

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I think Natasha is correct in her interpretation but I think this is something might never been tested in front of a judge.

The Data Protection Act provides protection with respect to the capture, holding, processing and dissemination of personal data. While it does does contain an exemption for the purpose of criminal (or Tax & National Security) investigations we all know that working as a prostitute is not illegal, therefore this clause should not be relevant. Therefore the basic protection, in simple terms the right to privacy should hold true.

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Silverado do you know if the various police forces share information / intelligence such as the above ?

Is it a national database ? So, if I was to move from say, Glasgow to Cardiff would the information

follow me ?

My knowledge of Scottish law and procedure is very limited.

My experience is that the police are not very joined up particularly in relation to low level information such as this. That's even if it gets on the database. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Josie's details got no further than the pocket book of the officer who wrote them down.

I think that it's very unlikely that at the present time the information would be available to another force, and even less likely that a Scottish force would make it available to one in England & Wales.

Have a look at section 115 Police Act 1997 (which does apply to Scotland as well):

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/50/section/115

"Section 115(7) Before issuing an enhanced criminal record certificate the Secretary of State shall request the chief officer of every relevant police force to provide any information which, in the chief officer’s opinion—.

(a)might be relevant for the purpose described in the statement under subsection (2), and.

(b)ought to be included in the certificate."

I'm reasonably confident that giving an address in a different force area would frustrate the procedure. Having said that, my recollection is that in your case only a Standard CRB check will be required, so no additional information will be requested of the police.

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My knowledge of Scottish law and procedure is very limited.

My experience is that the police are not very joined up particularly in relation to low level information such as this. That's even if it gets on the database. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Josie's details got no further than the pocket book of the officer who wrote them down.

I think that it's very unlikely that at the present time the information would be available to another force, and even less likely that a Scottish force would make it available to one in England & Wales.

Have a look at section 115 Police Act 1997 (which does apply to Scotland as well):

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/50/section/115

"Section 115(7) Before issuing an enhanced criminal record certificate the Secretary of State shall request the chief officer of every relevant police force to provide any information which, in the chief officer’s opinion—.

(a)might be relevant for the purpose described in the statement under subsection (2), and.

(b)ought to be included in the certificate."

I'm reasonably confident that giving an address in a different force area would frustrate the procedure. Having said that, my recollection is that in your case only a Standard CRB check will be required, so no additional information will be requested of the police.

Thank you very much, you're a gent.

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Re: Subject Access - i've had a quick look at some Police sites and I think Silverado is right. The Police are unlikely to disclose this information to me.

I paid for my enhanced disclosure myself, a requirement for my job as cab driver, and I'm sitting looking at it now, as I was given a copy.

They may not tell you what info they have on you, but from the small print, I think you have a right to know what's disclosed to other people.

Police Record disclosure is of "Convictions, cautions, reprimands and warnings", which won't apply to you. "Other relevant information" which may, is "at the discretion of the Chief Police Officers or those of an equivalent level in other policing agencies who have been approached by the CRB, with due regard to the position sought by the person to whom the Disclosure relates"

It might be worth applying for the job to see if they are revealing info on you. All recipients of such info "must keep it secure and protect it from loss or unauthorised access," your prospective employers would be in deep shit if they allowed any info about you to leak out.

Edited by Joe Blob

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I paid for my enhanced disclosure myself, a requirement for my job as cab driver, and I'm sitting looking at it now, as I was given a copy.

They may not tell you what info they have on you, but from the small print, I think you have a right to know what's disclosed to other people.

Police Record disclosure is of "Convictions, cautions, reprimands and warnings", which won't apply to you. "Other relevant information" which may, is "at the discretion of the Chief Police Officers or those of an equivalent level in other policing agencies who have been approached by the CRB, with due regard to the position sought by the person to whom the Disclosure relates"

It might be worth applying for the job to see if they are revealing info on you. All recipients of such info "must keep it secure and protect it from loss or unauthorised access," your prospective employers would be in deep shit if they allowed any info about you to leak out.

A complete copy of the CRB check should be sent to the counter-signatory ( ie job applicant). That's quite clear from section 115(9) Police Act 1997.

As you say it might be worth Josie applying for the job to obtain a copy of the certificate. The other alternative is to join an agency and apply through them.

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