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Blackkaht

Has Any Wg Been Pissed Off Enough Or Even Brave Enough To Sue A Punter?

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Hi everyone!

I've been reading loads of forums and can't find an exact answer to my query! The website saafe.info gives loads of warnings about prolific conmen and scammers legging it without paying after services rendered but what I'm really wanting to know is - has any escort actually successfully sued a client for funds owed?

I'm doing my best to not put myself in that situation where I'm owed money but I do know of some other girls that have provided services and have not been paid.

What is the legality of suing a punter for the fee? Especially in cases where it's an overnight booking and he disappears or if he shags you and then legs it - would the courts throw out a case where an escort brings a civil suit? Or is it viewed as a contract just like any other - services provided for a set fee?

I'm really curious and like to be armed with knowledge!

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Hi everyone!

I've been reading loads of forums and can't find an exact answer to my query! The website saafe.info gives loads of warnings about prolific conmen and scammers legging it without paying after services rendered but what I'm really wanting to know is - has any escort actually successfully sued a client for funds owed?

I'm doing my best to not put myself in that situation where I'm owed money but I do know of some other girls that have provided services and have not been paid.

What is the legality of suing a punter for the fee? Especially in cases where it's an overnight booking and he disappears or if he shags you and then legs it - would the courts throw out a case where an escort brings a civil suit? Or is it viewed as a contract just like any other - services provided for a set fee?

I'm really curious and like to be armed with knowledge!

I don't think an 'immoral contract' is legally enforceable, so if you shag him and he doesn't pay, it's your fault for not asking for money up front. Similarly, if you advertise and agree OWO, anal watersports et al, and then refuse to give him anything other than a vanilla shag, he can't sue you.

Criminal law still stands however, so him taking the money back afterwards, or you taking his money and doing a runner will be criminal offences.

Best Wishes, JB

DISCLAIMER. I'm not a lawyer, all of the above could be bollocks

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I think you may find it difficult to collect sufficient evidence since many of us use "nommes de guerre" for punting. How would you trace him if he had a pay as you go SIM card? His e-mail address should (if he is not a fool) be totally separate from his "domestic" or work one, and therefore be hard to trace.

My advice would be to avoid the situation arising in the first place, which is what you say you are doing.

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I think you may find it difficult to collect sufficient evidence since many of us use "nommes de guerre" for punting. How would you trace him if he had a pay as you go SIM card? His e-mail address should (if he is not a fool) be totally separate from his "domestic" or work one, and therefore be hard to trace.

My advice would be to avoid the situation arising in the first place, which is what you say you are doing.

Spot on Paul. Whats interesting from reading many posts on here over the years is the number of punters who dont use a seperate punting phone or sim, their logic is they have nowhere to hide them, although a sim card is tiny obviously or they will forget to change the sim card making it too risky to have a dedicated punting one so prefer to risk using their everyday mobile. Their logic is different to mine and makes no sense to me. :)

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Thank you for all your responses so far.

I think you would be so amazed to see my inbox - it is full of emails from guys in the City - who work at well known banks, law firms, It firms and such - it use to make me blink but now I don't even bat an eye - if they can't be bothered by their own lack of discretion why should I be bothered?

I only wrote the above to say that usually it is easy to trace some of these guys who book girls as they are not that smart to start off with. I had one particular booking with a very well known person who lives in a very well known road - couldn't believe the randy old codger expected the goods with no cash paid upfront. I quickly made my excuses and left and to top it all off - he didn't even re-imburse me for my taxi fare! He promised he would "sort me out" next time! I fully believe that had we done the do without me getting my fee upfront - he would not have paid or maybe paid but not the full amount.

Back to the topic at hand - surely if a punter takes a service and doesn't pay for it then that's a form of theft? Doesn't the same principle apply if one eats in a restaurant and does not pay the bill? A service is a service surely, immoral or not?

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What is the legality of suing a punter for the fee?.......I'm really curious and like to be armed with knowledge!

As JB says, a contract for sexual services is an immoral contract and unenforceable in law.

Having said that, if you're paid by cheque and it bounces then you can sue on that because the cheque is a promise to pay.

It may also be a criminal offence, ie. section 11 Fraud Act 2006 ( Obtaining services dishonestly). However, good luck with getting the police involved. I very much doubt that they'll be interested unless the guy is a serial fraudster and enough people complain.

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As JB says, a contract for sexual services is an immoral contract and unenforceable in law.

Having said that, if you're paid by cheque and it bounces then you can sue on that because the cheque is a promise to pay.

It may also be a criminal offence, ie. section 11 Fraud Act 2006 ( Obtaining services dishonestly). However, good luck with getting the police involved. I very much doubt that they'll be interested unless the guy is a serial fraudster and enough people complain.

If the contract was a contract for sexual services, I'm 100% with my brother - if, however, the contract is clearly expressed (copied from one particularly stellar lady's web site - fair use, I'll claim when I next see her, if she objects) as, "The offers on this and the following pages are for time and companionship only. If anything else happens it is a matter of coincidence and choice between consenting adults. Anything implied or inferred within these pages is not to be taken as an inducement for payment for anything other than time and (executive) companionship." will the punter be allowed, in his defence, to testify that she allowed him to understand that he'd certainly get a fuck?

To a certain extent, assuming that the lady plaintiff has got the punter's true identity to issue against him, will he dare show his head above the parapet to defend? One recalls Mighell v Brown, where "Mr Brown" had the chutzpah to turn up at the Mags, accompanied by the Permanent Secretary at the Foreign Office, who informed the JJ that Mr Brown, being HH the Sultan of Johor, had soverign immunity, and, accordingly they had no jurisdiction to rule on her claim that he'd fathered her "love child"! He was, I'd suggest, unusual!

My advice to any WG in this situation would be to issue, and then see what happens. What my brother will, I hope, help with is the matter of anonymising the Plaintiff (claimant if you want to be "modern") - does she have to come, herself, all the way out into the open?

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If the contract was a contract for sexual services, I'm 100% with my brother - if, however, the contract is clearly expressed (copied from one particularly stellar lady's web site - fair use, I'll claim when I next see her, if she objects) as, "The offers on this and the following pages are for time and companionship only. If anything else happens it is a matter of coincidence and choice between consenting adults. Anything implied or inferred within these pages is not to be taken as an inducement for payment for anything other than time and (executive) companionship." will the punter be allowed, in his defence, to testify that she allowed him to understand that he'd certainly get a fuck?

To a certain extent, assuming that the lady plaintiff has got the punter's true identity to issue against him, will he dare show his head above the parapet to defend? One recalls Mighell v Brown, where "Mr Brown" had the chutzpah to turn up at the Mags, accompanied by the Permanent Secretary at the Foreign Office, who informed the JJ that Mr Brown, being HH the Sultan of Johor, had soverign immunity, and, accordingly they had no jurisdiction to rule on her claim that he'd fathered her "love child"! He was, I'd suggest, unusual!

My advice to any WG in this situation would be to issue, and then see what happens. What my brother will, I hope, help with is the matter of anonymising the Plaintiff (claimant if you want to be "modern") - does she have to come, herself, all the way out into the open?

What's the position on paying with counterfeit notes?I am under the impression mere possession is a crime.

Edited by Strawberry

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What's the position on paying with counterfeit notes?I am under the impression mere possession is a crime.

If that's true, then presumably the person being paid is just as guilty as the person paying.

Mind you, nothing about the law would surprise me.

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I know of one parlour lady who successfully sued on a dishonoured cheque, claiming that the punter was paying for a massage.

Quite which part of her anatomy was massaging which part of his anatomy is immaterial, it is still anatomically a massage.

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What's the position on paying with counterfeit notes?I am under the impression mere possession is a crime.

I think you are referring to the Forgery & Counterfeiting Act 1981?

16 Offences involving the custody or control of counterfeit notes and coins.

(1)It is an offence for a person to have in his custody or under his control any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, a counterfeit of a currency note or of a protected coin, intending either to pass or tender it as genuine or to deliver it to another with the intention that he or another shall pass or tender it as genuine.

(2)It is an offence for a person to have in his custody or under his control, without lawful authority or excuse, any thing which is, and which he knows or believes to be, a counterfeit of a currency note or of a protected coin.

(3)It is immaterial for the purposes of subsections (1) and (2) above that a coin or note is not in a fit state to be passed or tendered or that the making or counterfeiting of a coin or note has not been finished or perfected.

I'd say that if a punter pays a WG in forged notes, she isn't caught by ss(1) because she isn't (we assume) intending to snag shift them onto some dupe, and I'd argue on her behalf under ss(2) that she has "excuse" in as much as, as soon as she became aware that they were conterfeit, she paused only to put some civvies on before heading straight to the police station!

What I would suggest is that paying a WG with counterfeit currency is only slightly less short sighted than bouncing a cheque upon her! If she can contact him after she realises what they are, she has the absolute arm twist - "Either I take them to the police now, or you buy them back off me with genuine notes @, shall we say, 200% of face value!" If she can't contact him, she should, indeed, take them to the Police with maximum contact data, and the police will, I rather think, take the matter seriously, and would, probably, be able to trace his punting telephone, and him too. I doubt, however, that the courts would help the WG recover her proper fee from the punter!

Golden Rule One : Cash up front, and check with pen!

Edited by Irgendeiner

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I think you would be so amazed to see my inbox - it is full of emails from guys in the City - who work at well known banks, law firms, It firms and such - it use to make me blink but now I don't even bat an eye - if they can't be bothered by their own lack of discretion why should I be bothered?

I also have tons of potential clients e-mailing me from their business address (real name, company, position and phone number) at the end as signature. I'm impressed they would do that (I wouldn't do it). I had this friend who was a professional dominatrix with a very "colourful" name -something along the lines of "Mistress Black & blue"-. Some guy interested in her services called her and left her a message. so my friend hit the "call back" button after hearing so message and someone answered:

"Hello?"

"Hi, may I speak to Joe P?"

"He's not here right now. Who is this?"

"This is Mistress Black & blue. He left me a voice mail 10 minutes ago. Who am I talking too"

" Errr.....This is Tom, his business partner....." (sounding very concerned)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

nough said. Guys: get a pre-paid phone.

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nough said. Guys: get a pre-paid phone.

Excellent advice!

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Excellent advice!

It is or a buy a seperate sim. Some punters on here say they dont though as they cant hid a sim, seeing as they are tiny i find that impossible to understand, others say they will forget to change sims over so could get caught out. So they continue to use one phone and risk getting caught out on that, again it makes no sense to me. Having a dedicated punting phone and/or sim is a basic punting precaution in my opinion. :)

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Hi everyone!

I've been reading loads of forums and can't find an exact answer to my query! The website saafe.info gives loads of warnings about prolific conmen and scammers legging it without paying after services rendered but what I'm really wanting to know is - has any escort actually successfully sued a client for funds owed?

I'm doing my best to not put myself in that situation where I'm owed money but I do know of some other girls that have provided services and have not been paid.

What is the legality of suing a punter for the fee? Especially in cases where it's an overnight booking and he disappears or if he shags you and then legs it - would the courts throw out a case where an escort brings a civil suit? Or is it viewed as a contract just like any other - services provided for a set fee?

I'm really curious and like to be armed with knowledge!

Escorts bringing civil suits? why not? Escorting is perfectly legal and the provision of services for money is just as protected as the provision of goods for money.

If you stay in a hotel and 'leg it' in the morning you have committed an offence. If you have a vanilla massage at a health culb and hoof it you have committed an offence. Is escorting any different?

Insisting on the fee upfront is the only way to avoid problems. If he then takes the fee back somehow after the service it then amounts to Theft.

The police and courts tend to treat escorts no different than anyone else. Being an escort does not mean you give up any rights to protection under the law. It doesn't mean criminals and conmen can target us with impunity.

Escorting is not illegal and working as an escort is not grounds for being treated any differently by the legal system, otherwise the legal system would find itself the recipient of a lawsuit.

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Escorts bringing civil suits? why not? Escorting is perfectly legal and the provision of services for money is just as protected as the provision of goods for money.

If you stay in a hotel and 'leg it' in the morning you have committed an offence. If you have a vanilla massage at a health culb and hoof it you have committed an offence. Is escorting any different?

If the escorting involves prostitution or sexual services then it's an immoral contract and unenforceable at law - Pearce v Brooks (1866).

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If the escorting involves prostitution or sexual services then it's an immoral contract and unenforceable at law - Pearce v Brooks (1866).

I'm sure there would be something to be said about the validity of such an outdated ruling! Up until 1960 It was an offence for every man (boy) over the age of 12 not to practice Archery on a Sunday!

Treason was a hanging offence until 1998. Technically this meant that Hewitt could have been hung for knocking off Diana! He wasn't because he couldn't be - despite the 'law'

There is another un repealed law apparently that says it is legal to shoot a Weshman with a bow and arrow within the city walls of Chester after midnight. Its clearly isn't legal of course as you would be arrested and charged should you try!

Prostitution is not illegal. Being subject to or protected by the law is not dependent on moral behavior in 2011. It may have been in Victoria's reign but you can bet a criminal record that it isn't in 2011.

But...I'm not a legal expert, if the prostitute, going about her legal business can be robbed or defrauded with no recourse in Law the something needs to be done. I'm sure there would be other laws that circumnavigate Victorian technicalities such as (maybe) False pretences fraudulently obtaining deception etc that apply to everyone. They're very muddy waters for legal navigation.

I have read that there is definitely a breach of contract in civil law by refusing to pay a prostitute for services rended. A wholly grey area in any business but the option exists to sue in the civil courts. It isnt as expensive as it sounds and many non payers would step back and settle rather than face a court appearance and think of the free publicity from the press and the negative publicity for Mr !

The trick is to have the fee agreed and paid before any services are rendered. That makes possession of the fee the fabled 9/10s of the law. Its common sense really, and should things go wrong letting the culprit know you will pursue him in the civil courts, which means identifying him publicly could help.

That is of course on the understanding he isnt accused of some more serious offence by an angry and confused victim. Muddy and unpredictable indeed! :unsure:

So legally its very grey I suspect. Civil law says a prostitute can sue for unpaid fees. Common sense and professionalism from the escort says it shouldn't be an issue!

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I personally know of a couple of WG's who were stalked and sent life threatening threats by some crazies. They went to the closest police station to file a complaint and the cops told them that because they were using an alias they couldn't do anything about it as the threats were directed to their aliases not they're real names (which escort uses her real name????). Basically the police got rid of them with the most silly of excuses. I also know of another WG that was raped by a client (she didn't do anal and the client forced himself. She was left with injuries). When she went to the police they said that because she had agreeded to a sexual service with this man and there was no way of proving there had been an actual rape.

A WG calling the police for theft of services and expecting them to take her seriously? You must be kidding.

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Prostitution is not illegal. Being subject to or protected by the law is not dependent on moral behavior in 2011.

I like the cut of this dude's jib. I'm not a lawyer either, but uk law does permit agreed exchange of sexual favours for money ( although closely related behaviours may not be ).

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I dont rip-off or refuse to pay WGs although have been ripped off and scammed by dishonest WGs myself. I never considered involving the police or courts as it wasnt worth my while and i chalked it down to experience. Proving it occured would of been impossible without a confession in my opinion and i imagine this would be the same with a WG proving a punter punted with her and didnt pay her. How can you prove he didnt pay, it would be his word against the WGs.

In my case all a WG would have is a paid for in cash PAYG sim number and my description. For theft or a non violent crime the police probably arent going to go all out checking CCTV which would be the only possible way to identify me. They might and certainly should for violent crimes though such as assault and rape.

I do however know from posts and threads that many punters dont hide their identities so it would be easy to trace them.

Edited by smiths

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I'm sure there would be something to be said about the validity of such an outdated ruling!

Outdated ? In the context of English law that's relatively recent. It's a well established legal concept and I can't see the appeal courts changing it for a long time. Fairly recently there was a case which held that claimants could sue for unpaid advertising costs for telephone chatlines. That was held not to be immoral, and not in the same category as prostitution.

Whether we like it or not, the law looks upon prostitution as being immoral.

Treason was a hanging offence until 1998. Technically this meant that Hewitt could have been hung for knocking off Diana! He wasn't because he couldn't be - despite the 'law'.

My knowledge of the Treason Acts (in particular the 1351 Act, part of which is still in force) is fairly limited. However, if technically Hewitt could have faced the death penalty then it's not true to say that he couldn't be hung. Legally he could, if ever convicted. It's just that in practice it was never ever going to happen.

There is another un repealed law apparently that says it is legal to shoot a Weshman with a bow and arrow within the city walls of Chester after midnight. Its clearly isn't legal of course as you would be arrested and charged should you try!

Urban myth. Most of these old laws were repealed by one of the many Stautute Law (Repeals) Act. The Chester one is definitely a myth.

Prostitution is not illegal. Being subject to or protected by the law is not dependent on moral behavior in 2011. It may have been in Victoria's reign but you can bet a criminal record that it isn't in 2011.

Prostitution is not and never has been illegal in the UK.

But...I'm not a legal expert, if the prostitute, going about her legal business can be robbed or defrauded with no recourse in Law the something needs to be done.

If she's robbed or defrauded then the perpetrator of the crime commits an offence under the Theft Act 1968 and/or the Fraud Act 2006. She just can't bring a civil action under contract law for her unpaid fee because prostitution is classed as an immoral contract.

I'm sure there would be other laws that circumnavigate Victorian technicalities such as (maybe) False pretences fraudulently obtaining deception etc that apply to everyone. They're very muddy waters for legal navigation.

The offence is section 11 Fraud Act 2006 (obtaining services dishonestly).Maximum penalty - 5 years on indictment.

I have read that there is definitely a breach of contract in civil law by refusing to pay a prostitute for services rended. A wholly grey area in any business but the option exists to sue in the civil courts. It isnt as expensive as it sounds and many non payers would step back and settle rather than face a court appearance and think of the free publicity from the press and the negative publicity for Mr !

Any breach of contract is unenforceable for the reasons I've given. I've no doubt that many people would pay up rather than go to court. Having said that , even if it did go to the county court the District Judge would be well aware that the contract is unenforceable. There would be no publicity because the hearing is very informal and the public and press are not permitted to attend.

The trick is to have the fee agreed and paid before any services are rendered. That makes possession of the fee the fabled 9/10s of the law. Its common sense really, and should things go wrong letting the culprit know you will pursue him in the civil courts, which means identifying him publicly could help.

That is of course on the understanding he isnt accused of some more serious offence by an angry and confused victim. Muddy and unpredictable indeed! :unsure:

So legally its very grey I suspect. Civil law says a prostitute can sue for unpaid fees. Common sense and professionalism from the escort says it shouldn't be an issue!

There's nothing stopping a prostitute from suing for unpaid fees. She will lose the case though. That's what the law says. If the punter pays by cheque and it's dishonoured then she can sue on that because the cheque constitutes a promise to pay.

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I'm sure there would be something to be said about the validity of such an outdated ruling!......... So legally its very grey I suspect. Civil law says a prostitute can sue for unpaid fees. Common sense and professionalism from the escort says it shouldn't be an issue!

I've managed to find a reference to the 1996 Court of Appeal case that affirmed that a contract involving prostitution is unenforceable:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/sexline-advertisements-were-not-immoral-1330516.html

"Contracts for sexually immoral purposes were contrary to public policy and contracts tending to promote sexual immorality were illegal and unenforceable."

The law is quite clear:

1. Prostitution is not illegal in the UK.

2. Prostitution is though immoral.

3. Immoral contracts are unenforceable.

4. A prostitute cannot sue for unpaid fees for sexual services.

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I've managed to find a reference to the 1996 Court of Appeal case that affirmed that a contract involving prostitution is unenforceable:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/sexline-advertisements-were-not-immoral-1330516.html

"Contracts for sexually immoral purposes were contrary to public policy and contracts tending to promote sexual immorality were illegal and unenforceable."

The law is quite clear:

1. Prostitution is not illegal in the UK.

2. Prostitution is though immoral.

3. Immoral contracts are unenforceable.

4. A prostitute cannot sue for unpaid fees for sexual services.

Thanks as ever for a comprehensive answer to the question, clearcut and precise. :)

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2. Prostitution is though immoral.

Or is it? Googling the question throws up answers that it certainly used to be, perhaps because people presume coercion is involved. And that in Germany the position is being tested legally

The independent article isn't definitive as istm the immorality or not of prostitution isn't specifically addressed ( just presumed ).

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If the escorting involves prostitution or sexual services then it's an immoral contract and unenforceable at law - Pearce v Brooks (1866).

That isn't quite what P v B says! It was (in those distant days) a jury trial - the jury had found that Pearce, who had hired an attractive Brougham to Mrs Brooks, knew both that she was a WG, and that she intended to use it, on nice days, presumably, with the hood down, to attract business. She failed to keep up the payments, and Pearce sued her, unsuccessfully. (Was her coachman prosecuted for living off the immoral earnings? The report, obviously doesn't tell, or did she drive the Brougham herself?)

Whether the District Judge knows that the claimant is a whore or not, it is not for him/her to non-suit her simply because of his/her private guess or knowlege. If the defendant wishes to assert at the PTR that the contract is void, on account of he <expected to get> <got> his end away, he is going to have to say so, which, in most cases, I'd suggest, will embarass him sufficiently to make settlement in limine probable!

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