Adam88

How Safe Is Punting These Days?

24 posts in this topic

I know there is a lot of info on here... but it owuld be really useful if someone with a god knowledge could summarise how (un_safe punting is from a legal point fo view these days. In partiuclar, I'm interested in teh Soho walkups - in practice do any punters have troulbe with the law in this area? Does the law assume more of these girls are 'trafficked' and act accordingly?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know there is a lot of info on here... but it owuld be really useful if someone with a god knowledge could summarise how (un_safe punting is from a legal point fo view these days. In partiuclar, I'm interested in teh Soho walkups - in practice do any punters have troulbe with the law in this area? Does the law assume more of these girls are 'trafficked' and act accordingly?

Almost 2 years ago to the month when they changed the law we all expected hearing about police raids and arrests of punters on an almost daily basis. Apart from one or two incidents over the past two years I get the impression it's pretty much business as usual.

I'm sure one of our more legally expeienced members will be along soon to give more detailled information.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Contributors,

Adam88 asks an interesting question: "How safe is punting?" (from a legal point of view).

What are the "Soho Walkups", please? (Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the London Scene)

The law to which Bert was (probably) refering is named: Policing And Crime Act, 2009

This Act made it illegal to pay for services of a prostitute "who is controlled for gain" by a third party. In other words, the Authorities decided to discourage punters themselves, who knowingly engage the services of a "trafficked" WG.

Human trafficking is viewed as a serious imprisonable offense in the UK. (Prison sentences for prosecuted traffickers are around 7 years, if memory serves). I recall there were police "raids" in some "parlours" local to me, these receiving local media attention. The victims involved appeared to be mostly Eastern Europeans. However, I note the parlour was not shutdown - It appears to still be operating...

The big question a punter needs to ask is this: "Is the WG I'm paying a trafficked worker?"

If there is a suspicion she is, then the law is being broken, and one could be arrested. I personally, do not use parlours for a variety of reasons, one of them being one cannot be sure how the WGs are recruited. It amounts to a "grey area" for punters and that's where the trouble starts.

Thoughts welcomed.

Kind Regards, DrSex :ph34r:

PS: I don't know much about the "background" leading up to the law being changed. Some laws arise due to political pressure from pressure groups or politicians backing a particular "agenda". Human trafficking is linked with organised crime, which may be the reason Authorities have acted so robustly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

biggest risk is having a car smash on way there i reckon. once in the ladies arms i reckon safe as houses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Contributors,

Adam88 asks an interesting question: "How safe is punting?" (from a legal point of view).

What are the "Soho Walkups", please? (Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the London Scene)

The law to which Bert was (probably) refering is named: Policing And Crime Act, 2009

This Act made it illegal to pay for services of a prostitute "who is controlled for gain" by a third party. In other words, the Authorities decided to discourage punters themselves, who knowingly engage the services of a "trafficked" WG.

Human trafficking is viewed as a serious imprisonable offense in the UK. (Prison sentences for prosecuted traffickers are around 7 years, if memory serves). I recall there were police "raids" in some "parlours" local to me, these receiving local media attention. The victims involved appeared to be mostly Eastern Europeans. However, I note the parlour was not shutdown - It appears to still be operating...

The big question a punter needs to ask is this: "Is the WG I'm paying a trafficked worker?"

If there is a suspicion she is, then the law is being broken, and one could be arrested. I personally, do not use parlours for a variety of reasons, one of them being one cannot be sure how the WGs are recruited. It amounts to a "grey area" for punters and that's where the trouble starts.

Thoughts welcomed.

Kind Regards, DrSex :ph34r:

PS: I don't know much about the "background" leading up to the law being changed. Some laws arise due to political pressure from pressure groups or politicians backing a particular "agenda". Human trafficking is linked with organised crime, which may be the reason Authorities have acted so robustly.

"knowingly engage" actually the offence is a strict liability one - it is up to you to know, and not knowing is no defence.

Edited by Strawberry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"knowingly engage" actually the offence is a strict liability one - it is up to you to know, and not knowing is no defence.

Indeed, and that is a crucial distinction of course. Even if you werent aware and i would hope not many punters would wish to punt with a woman who had been trafficked or was being coerced so many wouldnt be aware or indeed have any way of being able to know for definite unless the woman told you, but the punter could still get done. Its designed to put punters off punting in the first place by scaring them off. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Almost 2 years ago to the month when they changed the law we all expected hearing about police raids and arrests of punters on an almost daily basis. Apart from one or two incidents over the past two years I get the impression it's pretty much business as usual. I'm sure one of our more legally expeienced members will be along soon to give more detailled information.
Some of us were, i really thought the police would be instructed to uphold the letter of the law and carry out raids on brothels, fortunately for me as i go to brothels it is business as usual with the police in any given area using their own discretion and allowing brothels to operate or not. I now realise passing a law is one thing but it being applied to the letter by the police another within punting. Edited by smiths

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of us were, i really thought the police would be instructed to uphold the letter of the law and carry out raids on brothels, fortunately for me as i go to brothels it is business as usual with the police in any given area using their own discretion and allowing brothels to operate or not. I now realise passing a law is one thing but it being applied to the letter by the police another within punting.

Some laws are just too difficult, or too expensive to apply. The police are generally very busy, and surely if they knew a WG was trafficked they'd be busy chasing her pimp/trafficker as a priority.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the police in any given area using their own discretion and allowing brothels to operate or not.

With the budget cuts the force are suffering many Chief Cons are using common sense to devote their resources to solving crimes which give them a better press in their local area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This Act made it illegal to pay for services of a prostitute "who is controlled for gain" by a third party. In other words, the Authorities decided to discourage punters themselves, who knowingly engage the services of a "trafficked" WG.

This is not correct.

The offence is paying for sex from a person who is being coerced or deceived. Control for gain is a completely different concept, which catches management whether or not coercion is involved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Contributors,

Adam88 asks an interesting question: "How safe is punting?" (from a legal point of view).

What are the "Soho Walkups", please? (Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with the London Scene)

The law to which Bert was (probably) refering is named: Policing And Crime Act, 2009

This Act made it illegal to pay for services of a prostitute "who is controlled for gain" by a third party. In other words, the Authorities decided to discourage punters themselves, who knowingly engage the services of a "trafficked" WG.

Human trafficking is viewed as a serious imprisonable offense in the UK. (Prison sentences for prosecuted traffickers are around 7 years, if memory serves). I recall there were police "raids" in some "parlours" local to me, these receiving local media attention. The victims involved appeared to be mostly Eastern Europeans. However, I note the parlour was not shutdown - It appears to still be operating...

The big question a punter needs to ask is this: "Is the WG I'm paying a trafficked worker?"

If there is a suspicion she is, then the law is being broken, and one could be arrested. I personally, do not use parlours for a variety of reasons, one of them being one cannot be sure how the WGs are recruited. It amounts to a "grey area" for punters and that's where the trouble starts.

Thoughts welcomed.

Kind Regards, DrSex :ph34r:

PS: I don't know much about the "background" leading up to the law being changed. Some laws arise due to political pressure from pressure groups or politicians backing a particular "agenda". Human trafficking is linked with organised crime, which may be the reason Authorities have acted so robustly.

As Rockenroll just said you're wrong on several fundamental points.

1)The law is that it is an offence to pay or attempt to pay a person who is "Forced, threatened, deceived or otherwise coerced into prostitution". Control for gain was the original suggestion but it would have effectively meant any man who visited any brothel or parlour or agency girl would have been breaking the law irrespective of whether the girl was trafficked/forced/willing/whatever. So it was replaced by "forced etc."

2)It is strict liability so you don't need to know anything. (although I have my own opinions on how enforceable that would be if someone were willing to take them on)

3)It doesn't matter if she's trafficked - trafficked simply means that a person is helped to travel into or within the country in order for an offence under part one of the sexual offences act to be committed. Running a brothel or escort agency is one such offence and therefore a woman who comes here with the help of the agency boss is trafficked. A woman who is provided a taxi by the agency to take her to the client's location is trafficked. All that matters for this offence is whether she's working of her own free will.

As for the OP's original question, don't worry....I haven't heard of anyone being prosecuted for this offence. Oh, I know that the gov't has answered questions in parliament claiming 40 odd cases have been prosecuted in magistrates' court but I have not read of ONE case in detail. Apart from a raid on day one where some people were apparently cautioned. This is all very odd for an offence which was designed to be used to scare punters. You'd think Harriet Harman or Fiona MacTaggart or Denis MacShane or SOMEONE would have leapt on one of these supposed cases to cause maximum embarrassment and publicity. But nothing.

Edited by punter992005

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some laws are just too difficult, or too expensive to apply. The police are generally very busy, and surely if they knew a WG was trafficked they'd be busy chasing her pimp/trafficker as a priority.

I agree, maybe someone could provide a link where there has been a successful prosecution since this new law came in, more chance of being run over by a bus on the way to the punt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, maybe someone could provide a link where there has been a successful prosecution since this new law came in, more chance of being run over by a bus on the way to the punt.

I've looked and looked many a time. I've not been able to find a single news report anywhere of anyone actually appearing in the Magistrates Court and being prosecuted for the new section 53A offence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've looked and looked many a time. I've not been able to find a single news report anywhere of anyone actually appearing in the Magistrates Court and being prosecuted for the new section 53A offence.

Would this offence be dealt with by a Magistrates Court ------------------ because I would rather appear in Crown Court and have a jury decide my fate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would this offence be dealt with by a Magistrates Court ------------------ because I would rather appear in Crown Court and have a jury decide my fate.

It's a summary offence. Magistrates Court only. Maximum fine - £1,000 (currently).

Edited by Silverado

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a summary offence. Magistrates Court only. Maximum fine - £1,000 (currently).

That is interesting, so I would be at the mercy of Magistrates (who could be female) ------------- if found guilty I would also have my cab licence revoked so the fine would be the least of my worries.

I have said all along that no laws will stop me punting, my position remains the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jimmy, if you went to a Crown Court you might be faced by just one woman - the Judge. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jimmy, if you went to a Crown Court you might be faced by just one woman - the Judge. :)

I've been told some female judges are very progressive, up with the times and have liberal views ie aren't down on sex and prostitution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been told some female judges are very progressive, up with the times and have liberal views ie aren't down on sex and prostitution.

But do you think JRC would fancy his chances?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is interesting, so I would be at the mercy of Magistrates (who could be female) ------------- if found guilty I would also have my cab licence revoked so the fine would be the least of my worries.

I have said all along that no laws will stop me punting, my position remains the same.

how would you punt with no job

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

how would you punt with no job

Two important points;

"if found guilty"

and who's to know JRC doesn't have a punting fund to see him through hard times, or wouldn't find another occupation to earn a crust from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

how would you punt with no job

he could drive a minicab!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is all very odd for an offence which was designed to be used to scare punters. You'd think Harriet Harman or Fiona MacTaggart or Denis MacShane or SOMEONE would have leapt on one of these supposed cases to cause maximum embarrassment and publicity. But nothing.

I think since Labour lost the last election and Harman is longer in the Cabinet, the 'antis' have pulled in their horms because they no longer have the clout they once had. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I don't believe that the 'antis' actually care one little bit about the issue of punters, WGs, etc. To them, it's just a convenient vehicle for them to grab some headlines. Now it doesn't attract the attention that once it did, they've gone quiet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now