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P&C Bill Committe meeting 13 Oct.

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Lords back to work, next committee meeting 13 Oct..

force, deception or threats was replaced by "engaged in exploitative conduct" in committee,

so I guess this is what we have now? (if not, I expect that someone will correct me :))

Clause 13: Paying for sexual services of an exploited (?)prostitute: England and Wales

(1) A person (A) commits an offense if

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Clause 13: Paying for sexual services of an exploited (?)prostitute: England and Wales

(1) A person (A) commits an offense if—

(a) A makes or promises payment for the sexual services of a prostitute (:D,

(:) a third person © has engaged in exploitative conduct of a kind likely to induce or encourage B to provide the sexual services for which A has made or promised payment, and engaged in that conduct in the expectation of gain for C or another person (apart from A or :(.

(2) The following are irrelevant—

(a) where in the world the sexual services are to be provided and whether those services are provided,

(B) whether A is, or ought to be, aware that C has engaged in exploitative conduct

Such a law belongs back in the Dark Ages! :)

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Too vague a term & therefore it'll probably face the same oppositon, in commitee, as the "controlled for gain" aspects of the Bill, as first presented, did in the Commons Commitee.

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Lords back to work, next committee meeting 13 Oct..

force, deception or threats was replaced by “engaged in exploitative conduct” in committee,

so I guess this is what we have now? (if not, I expect that someone will correct me :))

Clause 13: Paying for sexual services of an exploited (?)prostitute: England and Wales

(1) A person (A) commits an offense if—

(a) A makes or promises payment for the sexual services of a prostitute (:D,

(:) a third person © has engaged in exploitative conduct of a kind likely to induce or encourage B

to provide the sexual services for which A has made or promised payment,

and engaged in that conduct in the expectation of gain for C or another person (apart from A or :(.

(2) The following are irrelevant—

(a) where in the world the sexual services are to be provided and

whether those services are provided,

(B) whether A is, or ought to be, aware that C has engaged in

exploitative conduct

(2A) C engages in exploitative conduct if—

(a) C uses force, threats (whether or not relating to violence) or any other form of coercion, or

(B) C practices any form of deception.”

(3) A person guilty of an offense under this section is liable on summary

conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

(4) For the purposes of this section “force” includes coercion by threats or

other psychological means including exploitation of vulnerability.

That looks about right, it is interesting to note that there is no mention of "conviction on indictment", I guess that is because strict liability is somewhat frowned upon by a Judge and jury, not unheard of by any means, but they do like a bit of mens rea (or should that be men's rear)where applicable, whereas a Magistrate who deals with a lot of traffic offences is unlikely to be that bothered.

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in english for those of us who are neither legalese and can you do a link to the fuller context/draft bill:confused:?

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That looks about right, it is interesting to note that there is no mention of "conviction on indictment", I guess that is because strict liability is somewhat frowned upon by a Judge and jury, not unheard of by any means, but they do like a bit of mens rea (or should that be men's rear)where applicable, whereas a Magistrate who deals with a lot of traffic offences is unlikely to be that bothered.

From the ECP(their words not mine, imho opinion it isn't 100% correct, see my op):

The situation with Policing & Crime Bill is now desperate.

The amendment made after 3rd Reading in the Commons, or otherwise exploited, could be a Trojan Horse to get the section through the Lords stages, and then introduce a re-interpretation of this phrase to widen the scope, one the Lords hurdles have been passed.

The Government has done this before and it is keen on using secondary legislation, and changes of definition to get what it wants past Parliamentary opposition.

See: www.prostitutescollective.net, which is leading the opposition to this restrictive legislation. It has model letters, which your visitors can send, or they can at least see the other side of the argument to that put by the Government.

The current wording being debated is:

Section 13 Paying for sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force etc: England and Wales

After section 53 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (c. 42) insert

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Too vague a term & therefore it'll probably face the same oppositon, in commitee, as the "controlled for gain" aspects of the Bill, as first presented, did in the Commons Commitee.

well no it's a bit of an odd change as "exploitative conduct" is defined further down as meaning.....

(2A) C engages in exploitative conduct if

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As the Lords will be on Committee meeting No. 4. Do they take the clauses in strict number order? If so the previous clauses took a lot of discussion and there is plenty after the clauses we are interested in. I looked up the Marine Bill which had it's 1st reading in the Commons in December 2008. This has had seven committee meetings with no date given for the Report stage.

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As the Lords will be on Committee meeting No. 4. Do they take the clauses in strict number order? If so the previous clauses took a lot of discussion and there is plenty after the clauses we are interested in. I looked up the Marine Bill which had it's 1st reading in the Commons in December 2008. This has had seven committee meetings with no date given for the Report stage.

It could be that clause 13 won't be discussed at all today, there are several

amendments(see below) but only for the following

Clauses 30 to 32

Clauses 33 to 45

Clauses 46 to 78

Clauses 79 to 112

Clauses 113 to 117

However, next meeting is 20 october so it will no doubt be discussed than if not today

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200809/ldbills/048/amend/ml048-ivr.htm

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It could be that clause 13 won't be discussed at all today, there are severalamendments(see below) but only for the following

Clauses 30 to 32

Clauses 33 to 45

Clauses 46 to 78

Clauses 79 to 112

Clauses 113 to 117

However, next meeting is 20 october so it will no doubt be discussed than if not today

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200809/ldbills/048/amend/ml048-ivr.htm

it wasn't, here's the transcript

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld/ldtoday/05.htm

next meeting is the 20th

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