elrond

The Swedish Model

242 posts in this topic

I can not understand the Green Loght to red light zones. I thought opinion was now to go down criminalising all purchase of sex. See the latest comment is free in the Guardian. Maybe a free brave people could waste a few minutes contributing to the debate.

The Swedish Model

Mactaggart advocates the so-called Swedish model, whereby the buying of sexual services is made illegal, as it has been in Sweden since 1999. Many people probably already think this is the case in the UK.

In fact, while "kerb crawling" and controlling prostitution for gain are illegal in Britain, purchasing sex is not currently against the law. To discuss the use of the Swedish model, Mactaggart, along with the Poppy Project, organised a meeting on prostitution at the Houses of Parliament this week, which was addressed by Gunilla Ekberg, a former special adviser to the Swedish government. Ekberg made a strong case for following Sweden's lead in criminalising demand, arguing that it had been successful in reducing prostitution and human trafficking.

Government ministers have launched a review of prostitution laws, which will include examining the Swedish model, and Phillip Hollobone, the Conservative MP for Kettering, has proposed an amendment to the current Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill that would criminalise the buying of sexual services. But inevitably there is no consensus of opinion.

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I can not understand the Green Loght to red light zones. I thought opinion was now to go down criminalising all purchase of sex. See the latest comment is free in the Guardian. Maybe a free brave people could waste a few minutes contributing to the debate.

The Swedish Model

Mactaggart advocates the so-called Swedish model, whereby the buying of sexual services is made illegal, as it has been in Sweden since 1999. Many people probably already think this is the case in the UK.

In fact, while "kerb crawling" and controlling prostitution for gain are illegal in Britain, purchasing sex is not currently against the law. To discuss the use of the Swedish model, Mactaggart, along with the Poppy Project, organised a meeting on prostitution at the Houses of Parliament this week, which was addressed by Gunilla Ekberg, a former special adviser to the Swedish government. Ekberg made a strong case for following Sweden's lead in criminalising demand, arguing that it had been successful in reducing prostitution and human trafficking.

Government ministers have launched a review of prostitution laws, which will include examining the Swedish model, and Phillip Hollobone, the Conservative MP for Kettering, has proposed an amendment to the current Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill that would criminalise the buying of sexual services. But inevitably there is no consensus of opinion.

What I never understand about is this is about street prostitution not "indoor work (escorting)"?

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Phillip Hollobone, the Conservative MP for Kettering, has proposed an amendment to the current Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill that would criminalise the buying of sexual services.

The problem, as I see it, with making the purchase of sex a criminal offence is that it opens the back door, so to speak, to making the selling of sex a criminal offence (although not in its own right) also. Any communication between the prostitute and the punter prior to the act could be classed as conspiring/assisting in a criminal offence, to be arrested/charged with the proposed criminal offence of buying sex there has to be, by definition, another party to actually receive the money and that could be classed as being involved/assisting in a criminal offence, the prostitute would be in possession of evidence of a criminal offence etc., taking it to its logical conclusion all advertising of sexual services could be classed as incitement to commit a criminal offence.

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are you saying all these boards will have to shut down as a result? :(

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are you saying all these boards will have to shut down as a result? :(

In theory yes, although practically I would rather doubt it, geographical location of server notwithstanding of course.

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What I never understand about is this is about street prostitution not "indoor work (escorting)"?

All paid sex, it would affect parlours and independent escorts more than street working. Street working, sale and purchase is already illegal.

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are you saying all these boards will have to shut down as a result? :(

advertising would become very internet based and would be moved off shore. Boards like this with the PN reports would become even more important as a way to avoid police stings etc.

But hey, the states have lived with this for years.

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Street working, sale and purchase is already illegal.

The sale and purchase (giving and recieving money or goods) of sex is not illegal in any shape or form (SOA 2003 age related law etc. notwithstanding), what is illegal is soliciting and kerb-crawling, neither of which involve to transfer of money or goods.

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I am 110% confident that the UK will not follow the "Swedish Model", it would be yet another law that could not be enforced.

Even if it were introduced Indies and Escort Agencies could operate as normal, they would just need to put a get out clause on the web-site stating that you are only buying companionship ---- some already do that.

If this is an excuse to stop trafficking then I simply don't buy it, the percentage of girls forced into prostitution in the UK is tiny compared to the volume of girls working willingly.

Whatever happens I will carry on punting until the day I die.:(

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I am 110% confident that the UK will not follow the "Swedish Model", it would be yet another law that could not be enforced.

Even if it were introduced Indies and Escort Agencies could operate as normal, they would just need to put a get out clause on the web-site stating that you are only buying companionship ---- some already do that.

The whole proposal, and all the possible ramifications, is far too complex for my brain cell to even start to comprehend, I can't even work out what the proposal hopes to achieve let alone how it intends to achieve it, whatever it might be. I have no idea how Swedish law works when the purchase of something is illegal but the selling of the same thing is legal, that's for those poor buggers to sort out and I wish them luck in doing so, but one thing is for sure if it happens here it will be a bigger farce than the current "control" situation in SOA 2003.

Anything I say on the subject will be total guesswork and should be given no credence whatsoever, however AFAIK it will be the first time in "modern" UK law that the selling of something is legal but the purchase of the same thing is illegal, and as such it stands every chance of being a monumental cock-up if only for the simple reason that there is no previous legal argument(s) to draw upon.

Btw Jimmy, the proposals will, in theory, not change the current legal standing of any prostitute so the use and usefulness of the T&C disclaimer will remain unchanged - not necessary and untried in any UK court.

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Strikes me trhat the scope for unintended outcomes is huge. In every other context, politicians are keen to tell us that Britain has a culture & economy more like USA than Europe, and any suggestion that we should look to Scandanavia for social or economic ideas has always fallen on deaf ears. Weird then to suddenly ignore what happens in USA where both prostitute & buyer are committing an offense in most states. It does not appear to have stopped or reduced either, but it has caused the game to be almost totally dominated by criminals. In New Orleans, Galveston & other places myself & the guys I work with find that any male only passengers in cabs are offered girls & drugs of our choice in the same breath. One constantly hears of guys who booked a girl to their hotel room & were robbed as a result. Does the tax payer really want pricy police officers wasting time on entrapping WGs & punters just because it's an easy way the tick some of the target boxes.

Then there will be economic & social consequences; how many women do it because it's both a better prospect than the CSA or call centre work and because it gives them time to organise & look after their children in a country that pushes women to work without providing adequate child care.

and so on & so on.....

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The sale and purchase (giving and recieving money or goods) of sex is not illegal in any shape or form (SOA 2003 age related law etc. notwithstanding), what is illegal is soliciting and kerb-crawling, neither of which involve to transfer of money or goods.

You must be a lawyer. :( Funny though they still make comments in evidence that his zip was down.

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Strikes me trhat the scope for unintended outcomes is huge. In every other context, politicians are keen to tell us that Britain has a culture & economy more like USA than Europe, and any suggestion that we should look to Scandanavia for social or economic ideas has always fallen on deaf ears. Weird then to suddenly ignore what happens in USA where both prostitute & buyer are committing an offense in most states. It does not appear to have stopped or reduced either, but it has caused the game to be almost totally dominated by criminals. In New Orleans, Galveston & other places myself & the guys I work with find that any male only passengers in cabs are offered girls & drugs of our choice in the same breath. One constantly hears of guys who booked a girl to their hotel room & were robbed as a result. Does the tax payer really want pricy police officers wasting time on entrapping WGs & punters just because it's an easy way the tick some of the target boxes.

Then there will be economic & social consequences; how many women do it because it's both a better prospect than the CSA or call centre work and because it gives them time to organise & look after their children in a country that pushes women to work without providing adequate child care.

and so on & so on.....

Alas few listen

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You must be a lawyer. :(

No, I just happen to know the difference between prostitution, soliciting and kerb-crawling.

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Would this be scrapped once the Labour government exit soon? :(

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Does the tax payer really want pricy police officers wasting time on entrapping WGs & punters just because it's an easy way the tick some of the target boxes.

Then there will be economic & social consequences; how many women do it because it's both a better prospect than the CSA or call centre work and because it gives them time to organise & look after their children in a country that pushes women to work without providing adequate child care.

and so on & so on.....

yes you're right the state would do things just because it's convenient for the state not often because the state want to make things work well for its citizens.

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what happens in USA where both prostitute & buyer are committing an offense in most states. It does not appear to have stopped or reduced either, but it has caused the game to be almost totally dominated by criminals.

You're looking in the wrong places, or maybe are just in the wrong cities. The agencies in the major U.S. cities are just like the London agencies, they take a cut but they're not "criminals" except in technical sense that prostitution is illegal. And the indies are the indies, same here as there.

However, punting in the U.S. is more expensive, and more complicated due to screening, than it is in the U.K.

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The whole proposal, and all the possible ramifications, is far too complex for my brain cell to even start to comprehend, I can't even work out what the proposal hopes to achieve let alone how it intends to achieve it, whatever it might be. I have no idea how Swedish law works when the purchase of something is illegal but the selling of the same thing is legal, that's for those poor buggers to sort out and I wish them luck in doing so, but one thing is for sure if it happens here it will be a bigger farce than the current "control" situation in SOA 2003.

Anything I say on the subject will be total guesswork and should be given no credence whatsoever, however AFAIK it will be the first time in "modern" UK law that the selling of something is legal but the purchase of the same thing is illegal, and as such it stands every chance of being a monumental cock-up if only for the simple reason that there is no previous legal argument(s) to draw upon.

Btw Jimmy, the proposals will, in theory, not change the current legal standing of any prostitute so the use and usefulness of the T&C disclaimer will remain unchanged - not necessary and untried in any UK court.

Sasfan, my thoughts entirely. It is ludicrous to suggest that the sale of sex, or indeed any other item may be legal, whilst the purchase thereof may be illegal :(

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Strikes me trhat the scope for unintended outcomes is huge. In every other context, politicians are keen to tell us that Britain has a culture & economy more like USA than Europe, and any suggestion that we should look to Scandanavia for social or economic ideas has always fallen on deaf ears. Weird then to suddenly ignore what happens in USA where both prostitute & buyer are committing an offense in most states. It does not appear to have stopped or reduced either, but it has caused the game to be almost totally dominated by criminals. In New Orleans, Galveston & other places myself & the guys I work with find that any male only passengers in cabs are offered girls & drugs of our choice in the same breath. One constantly hears of guys who booked a girl to their hotel room & were robbed as a result. Does the tax payer really want pricy police officers wasting time on entrapping WGs & punters just because it's an easy way the tick some of the target boxes.

Then there will be economic & social consequences; how many women do it because it's both a better prospect than the CSA or call centre work and because it gives them time to organise & look after their children in a country that pushes women to work without providing adequate child care.

and so on & so on.....

Akanostromo, my view is that this law would lead to a situation that you would describe.

I think it would force prices up and that will attract organised crime.

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Akanostromo, my view is that this law would lead to a situation that you would describe.

I think it would force prices up and that will attract organised crime.

I thought it was this very reason that the gangs that had global network of human trafficking (organised crime) much like drug trafficking gangs, the state had started to consider taking away the demand "punters purchasing" to stop gangs raking in :(

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Sasfan, my thoughts entirely. It is ludicrous to suggest that the sale of sex, or indeed any other item may be legal, whilst the purchase thereof may be illegal :(

But it does works in Duty Free retailers everywhere. They can legally sell you any amount of alcohol cigarettes, tobaccos, etc, (though many of them would not), but its illegal for consumer to purchase over allowed amount.

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but its illegal for consumer to purchase over allowed amount.

Technically it is not illegal to exchange money for the goods, what is illegal is to bring goods in excess of the legal allowance into the country, it's nit-picking I know, but there is a difference.

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Sasfan

I know you are correct, I was being very sloppy in my intepretation of the law. So sorry. It still means that if I go kerb crawling to buy some sex, then I will get done.

Would this be scrapped once the Labour government exit soon? :(

If it passes into law, then I do not think the Conservatives would repeal it. It is Phillip Hollobone, the Conservative MP for Kettering, who has proposed an amendment to the current Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill that would criminalise the buying of sexual services.

I have written to my conservative MP expressing concerns about the proposed amendement. Though if he is against prostitution, then I have no idea who to vote for, the green party does not get many votes here.

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Sasfan

I know you are correct, I was being very sloppy in my intepretation of the law. So sorry. It still means that if I go kerb crawling to buy some sex, then I will get done.

No problem, however you are not as sloppy as the kerb-crawling legislation, if you give it even the most perfunctory glance you do wonder if the people who are convicted actually want to get caught.

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