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number6

Paying For Sex: Women's Groups Call For Eu-Wide Ban

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The banshees are at it again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-20591726

"

More than 200 women's rights groups are calling for laws to make paying for sex a crime across the European Union.

Campaigners presented key policy recommendations for legislation to MEPs in Brussels on Wednesday.

"Prostitution is a form of violence, an obstacle to gender equality and an open door for organised crime to develop," a campaign spokeswoman told the BBC.

But opponents say the move is likely to drive the prostitution industry further underground.

The European Women's Lobby (EWL), which leads the campaign, wants EU member states to implement six key policies, including the criminalisation of all forms of procuring, and the creation of effective exit programmes for sex workers.

"The most important thing to understand about prostitution is that imposing sexual intercourse with money is a form of violence that shouldn't be accepted," EWL spokeswoman Pierrette Pape told the BBC"

Follow the link for the full story.

Edited by number6

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There was a discussion about this on The Today Program on Radio 4 this morning; Nikki from the ECP did very well I thought, debating with Pierette Pape.

I got the impression that Ms Pape has never had to face up to the kind of hardship that makes selling sex the only real option to be able to provide for themselves and their children for some women - and now she wants to remove that as well.

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I can't help thinking that unless something is done to counter them, these ideologically driven idiots will continue to gain ground, a bit at a time. Sadly, what's really required here is a sizeable, well-organised, well-funded, high-profile pressure group to push things in the other direction by addressing the gaping chasm between the simplistic public perception of WGs/punters and the much more complex reality. And that - with all due respect to those like Nikki who actually are getting off their butts - is something we simply don't have and don't seem likely to have any time soon.

(Sorry, rant over... )

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"The most important thing to understand about prostitution is that imposing sexual intercourse with money is a form of violence that shouldn't be accepted,"

How the fuck does that work? Do you beat the lady over the head with a rolled up wad of notes? Weigh her down with a pocket full of small change?

I think any right minded person would be against imposing sexual intercourse on another by any means. It seems the EWL can't get their heads round the idea that some women enjoy sex and willing choose to do it in exchange for money. Sadly the stigma attached to sex workers and their customers means that there will never be enough publicly visible positive role models to counter the tired old urban myth that all WGs are crack-addled street whores or trafficked foreigners, and all punters are socially inadequate refugees from the sex offenders register.

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These idealists have a point but banning prostitution all together would only create a bigger demand for the women sold into slavery.

If payment for sex was legalized and regulated properly everyone would be happy. WGs would be able to market themselves better and gain more customers and the government could income tax these WGs.

Regulation would also improve working conditions i.e. safer working conditions in terms of security, less risk of getting STds etc etc.

Something a little unrelated -WGs actually help marriages to stay intact. Put it this way, if a married man was has an affair with a younger woman outside marriage he is more likely to leave his wife for this younger woman but with the WG he would not have to as he can see as many young WGs as he pleases secretly and still stick with his wife.

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This was on Radio 4 this morning with a ECP spokeswoman gave a pretty good account of herself, but I think made a mistake of responding to questions, while the anti kept ignoring the questions and quoting rhetoric about the Swedish Model

One of the most important facts is the Swedish Model is a failure.

Another Study by the Univ. of London

... the results were dramatic in the negative. Legalization and/or regulation of prostitution, according to the study, led to:


  • A dramatic increase in all facets of the sex industry,



  • A dramatic increase in the involvement of organized crime in the sex industry,



  • A dramatic increase in child prostitution,



  • An explosion in the number of foreign women and girls trafficked into the region, and



  • Indications of an increase in violence against women.


The fact is the Swedish Model is a Failure, is the most powerful argument in our cause.

Edited by WykeTyke

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I would forget all the idealistic notions or arguments. the hausfraus across the eu are feeling the economic pinch. they know where the extra cash is going, hubby is keeping up his visits to Dana from the Danube. Time to take control of the family budget. Wifey is about to become remarkably resourceful.

Prostitution will be managed from the marital bed and kitchen dinettes. Order will be restored.

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This was on Radio 4 this morning with a ECP spokeswoman gave a pretty good account of herself, but I think made a mistake of responding to questions, while the anti kept ignoring the questions and quoting rhetoric about the Swedish Model

One of the most important facts is the Swedish Model is a failure.

Another Study by the Univ. of London

The fact is the Swedish Model is a Failure, is the most powerful argument in our cause.

But this is a battle that is being fought with very strong rhetoric, and they seem to have much more firepower. Listen to some of the language they are using "child trafficking", "sex slaves" , "Violence against women" it's very emotive and the campaign has been designed as such, ultimaltely as was the case in Sweden and Iceland this kind of rhetoric will obfuscate facts. If the stories in the paper's are to be believed France is pressing ahead with legistlation to criminalise the purchase of sex. I don't think the UK, will be too far behind when the next government get into power especially when Harriet Harman has been itching for this kind of legistlation.

From my experience, if a secret ballot was taken, I would say most women (not sex worker's of course) would strongly support a ban on prostitution simply because it means that their husbands, boyfriends, or men they may want to be intimate with cannot just go off and have sex with an attractive women anytime they want, thus decreasing their sexual power. The reason I make this point is because I believe any anti-prostitution legistlation or ban will be popular with female voters who probably comprise most of the electorate.

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This is deeply disturbing. Sex workers deserve to be recognised as professional and wonderful people, not viewed as victims. This is dangerous. I believe the EU should be dissolved.

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http://prostitutesco...workers-safety/ Initial response by the English Collective of Prostitutes to European Women’s Lobby recommendations. 4 December 2012

Looks like an excellent response to me - let's hope it doesn't simply go unreported.

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And how will it work exactly?

How do you stop a man paying a woman for sex? Are they going to patrol every club and bar? Every street corner? Every massage parlour? How many jobs will that create? I imagine only signed up members of the femminist club will get them though)

So, if I am in a bar and ask a lady I fancy if she wants a drink, does that count as paying for sex?

If (as once happened in my street very loudly to everyone's delight) a woman cannot pay her taxi fare home and offers a "ride for a ride" will that be an offence?

What about arranged marriages, will that count as enforced prostitution?

Will payment in kind be banned? If you give the woman a pawnable watch worth say £100, is that to be included?

The whole thing is a nightmare and the only people relishing it must be the lawyers!

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The banshees are at it again:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-20591726

"

More than 200 women's rights groups are calling for laws to make paying for sex a crime across the European Union.

Campaigners presented key policy recommendations for legislation to MEPs in Brussels on Wednesday.

"Prostitution is a form of violence, an obstacle to gender equality and an open door for organised crime to develop," a campaign spokeswoman told the BBC.

But opponents say the move is likely to drive the prostitution industry further underground.

The European Women's Lobby (EWL), which leads the campaign, wants EU member states to implement six key policies, including the criminalisation of all forms of procuring, and the creation of effective exit programmes for sex workers.

"The most important thing to understand about prostitution is that imposing sexual intercourse with money is a form of violence that shouldn't be accepted," EWL spokeswoman Pierrette Pape told the BBC"

Follow the link for the full story.

Well, as the story says, the EU don't actually have the power to legislate in that way. They have bills of rights etc. but they don't create specific offences for which you'll be arrested or convicted. The proposal is just about getting people talking and trying to further their ideals rather than actually passing a specific law.

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And how will it work exactly?

How do you stop a man paying a woman for sex? Are they going to patrol every club and bar? Every street corner? Every massage parlour? How many jobs will that create? I imagine only signed up members of the femminist club will get them though)

So, if I am in a bar and ask a lady I fancy if she wants a drink, does that count as paying for sex?

If (as once happened in my street very loudly to everyone's delight) a woman cannot pay her taxi fare home and offers a "ride for a ride" will that be an offence?

What about arranged marriages, will that count as enforced prostitution?

Will payment in kind be banned? If you give the woman a pawnable watch worth say £100, is that to be included?

The whole thing is a nightmare and the only people relishing it must be the lawyers!

Well it would work the same way as the law against paying a person under 18. To answer your scenarios....

If you're in a bar and buy her a drink - No. You can buy a person a drink and that wouldn't be payment for sex since you don't fuck everyone you buy drinks for.

If you offer a "ride for a ride" then yes. A taxi driver who had sex with a sixteen year old in lieu of payment would be breaching the current laws on child prostitution. So you could assume the same would apply in a new law.

Arranged marriages would not be covered

Payment in kind would be covered (as it is with child prostitution) as is payment to a third party or by a third party (with your knowledge). Also cancellation of debts would be covered i.e she owes you money (or someone ELSE owes you money) and you cancel that debt in exchange for sex.

Edited by punter992005

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I'm trying to work out why it's all running concurrently - ROI, NI, Scotland, France.

Do we have a conspiracy theorist in the house ?

I really do think that the general public's opinion of sex work is changing, but it's a slow process.

The more these bigoted bullies shout up for funding, the more we will shout them down.

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I'm trying to work out why it's all running concurrently - ROI, NI, Scotland, France.

Do we have a conspiracy theorist in the house ?

I really do think that the general public's opinion of sex work is changing, but it's a slow process.

The more these bigoted bullies shout up for funding, the more we will shout them down.

It's a very slow process.

I had an enlightening experience earlier this year. I was at dinner with some friends who had invited other people I didn't know. At one point in the evening the ladies had started gassing away together, and I heard from the other side of the table they were tut-tutting about all the sex slaves who had been imported for the Greek Olympics, the South African World Cup and some other major sporting event in Germany, shaking their heads in despair about what would happen in London for the Olympics. Having had enough to drink to make me indiscreet, I pitched in and said those claims had been generally accepted as crap (yes, yes, I know, I should have said "have been discredited"). Universal disbelief.

What made this interesting was that one of the ladies was involved in a children's charity and had a professional interest in the dangers to runaway children etc. She just didn't have a clue. She had fallen hook line and sinker for every phoney spin on the subject and had managed to remain completely unaware of the counter-arguments and counter-evidence. We promised to email each other information on the subject, which we duly did. I sent her various links, including one to a report from a leading anti-trafficking organization that deplored the false claims that had been made. She sent me - well, er, nothing really, apart from wild assertions based on nothing. She was an extremely well-meaning lady, but utterly uninformed on the question. What was it, again, that the road to hell was paved with?

Edited by Mr. Bloom

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The Swedish sex law that shook the World: http://www.thelocal....6/#.UL9PX-gV-JA Financial resources have also been ploughed into arranging seminars abroad in conjunction with Swedish embassies.

According to Dannerolle, part of the UK’s reluctance involves a pro-prostitution lobby of feminists that hold conflicting views from their Swedish peers.

Edited by starman

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There is a danger that these rights groups will increase in size and momentum, and then they become the unstoppable snowball. Then while us UK punters and WGs are sleepwalking, bang, legislation is passed and we're all fucked. Well, not in this case.

What should be of concern is the fact that research is biased one way or another as it is funded or commissioned by the pro or anti groups, and there is no truly independent survey. As we all know, the do-gooders always lump in the streetworker/drug/pimp angle and conveniently ignore as one poster said, the fact some women WANT to work like this. What about their human rights? And who is to say these do-gooders are actually right, especially when they use fact and figures of flawed or inconclusive research? To my mind prostitution is an easy target, they tag it with trafficking, and are trying to make it as unacceptable as drink driving, but will just drive it underground.

There's no easy answer, but what this and other goverments never try is a trial approach to see if the proposed legislation is indeed the right way forward. A typical example of the all or nothing approach is the Child Support Agency in its first incarnation, bus deregulation or rail privatization which have been utter cock ups.

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I really do think that the general public's opinion of sex work is changing, but it's a slow process.

The more these bigoted bullies shout up for funding, the more we will shout them down.

the general public i come into contact with are'nt bothered one way or another as long as theres no nuisance, i was in a butchers shop next door to a local parlour i sometimes visit and one of the staff nipped out to deliver pies somewhere nearby and the people in shop were joking with the owner " i bet he's gone next door" and "he'll be a while" even my cousin was aware of the parlour as she used to live close by, but no one is bothered as they'd rather the women work in a safe and secure environment rather than on the street,that is what would annoy most people as its then visible rather than behind closed doors

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the general public i come into contact with are'nt bothered one way or another as long as theres no nuisance, i was in a butchers shop next door to a local parlour i sometimes visit and one of the staff nipped out to deliver pies somewhere nearby and the people in shop were joking with the owner " i bet he's gone next door" and "he'll be a while" even my cousin was aware of the parlour as she used to live close by, but no one is bothered as they'd rather the women work in a safe and secure environment rather than on the street,that is what would annoy most people as its then visible rather than behind closed doors

The more the antis quote exaggerated claims, the more they discredit themselves. I asked a women who as far as I know is not involved in the sex industry to listen to a radio debate between a anti and a pro. The Anti was so exaggerating, and used words like 'buying a womens body' In the view of friend the anti lost the argument totally. Alas some of them have learnt the lesson, and people like Julie Bindel can come across very reasonable on radio shows.

I also agree that most people I speak with, colleagues at work, and friends, do not seem to see problems with prostitution this includes men and women. maybe they are being polite to me as they know my views. The only person I know who has a problem is my wife, and I have not brought her around to viewing sex workers in a kind way. At least she is honest and just calls them tarts and sluts.

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The more the antis quote exaggerated claims, the more they discredit themselves. I asked a women who as far as I know is not involved in the sex industry to listen to a radio debate between a anti and a pro. The Anti was so exaggerating, and used words like 'buying a womens body' In the view of friend the anti lost the argument totally.

indeed, the weakness of their argument is expressed in the desperation of their claims, especially when they get found out, such as the 25,000 sex slave panic that the guardian exposed

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why don't these fembots shave their legs and go and get shagged and lighten up

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While several European countries are considering criminalization, Russia is considering legislation and regulation :)

http://english.ruvr.ru/radio_broadcast/25950828/96988686.html

"Russia may soon have a new officially recognized profession. Novye Izvestia reports that in the near future a new bill to legalize prostitution will enter the lower house of Parliament. Here’s the quick outline: in order to be registered as a prostitute applicants will have to be at least 25 years old and get clean bill of health; services will have to be rendered in a room conforming to certain sanitary and fire safety standards. The bill also entails creation of a new supervisory body managing the legal aspects of the soon-to-be-legalized sex service industry, such as issuing licenses – most likely, it will be a division of the Russian Healthcare Ministry. The daily notes that this bill aims to protect clients of the ladies of the night – for example, if a gentlemen contracts an STD from a sex worker, he will be able to issue an official complaint within six months from the time the service was rendered. And, just like with any service industry, clients will also be able to file complaints if service quality is sub-par. Authors of the initiative hope this be beneficial not just for clients, but for everyone. The state will have a new revenue stream from taxation of the sex service industry; prostitutes would feel safer working in a legal sector for a change and this reorganization may actually shrink the industry, now that it will be strictly regulated. Opponents do not see much benefit and point out that in some European countries legalization of sex services led to spread of illegal child prostitution."

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