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Traffickers Prosecuted, punters next in line

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orientalgems owners prosecuted for trafficking

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7720605.stm

i cant believe it's not been started yet, so i'm starting it now.

leaving aside, the obvious difficulty in applying any law that holds that punters are responsible for ensuring a WG is not trafficked, who thinks they would or should report any WG they thought was trafficked?

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orientalgems owners prosecuted for trafficking

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7720605.stm

i cant believe it's not been started yet, so i'm starting it now.

leaving aside, the obvious difficulty in applying any law that holds that punters are responsible for ensuring a WG is not trafficked, who thinks they would or should report any WG they thought was trafficked?

I have and will contact crimestoppers. Prior to that I will make own investigations

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Also http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7725386.stm

I noticed it too and I actually came here to see if people were talking about it, no one was except you, which surprised me. I registered on the forum just now to reply to you.

It's funny how the BBC lists just that one site, when there is actually god, tens and tens of sites all run by the same gang. I guess now a lot of those girls will be out of action, if they're sent back to Thailand, and the others there will be no way to contact them unless you have their direct numbers ;-P

It's REALLY bad if they've been duped into an arrangement where by they owe 30 grand or whatever, that's evil. I understand if they charge them for taking the photoshopped photo shoot, and a cut for the services of the agency for the website, booking, flat, whatever, but no WAY that would come to 30 grand even if they paid for them to fly to the UK. So it's a complete rip off if the girls paid that much! :-( Poor things :-/

Such is the nature of organised crime though.

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leaving aside, the obvious difficulty in applying any law that holds that punters are responsible for ensuring a WG is not trafficked, who thinks they would or should report any WG they thought was trafficked?

First of all we have to determine what "trafficked" actually means, to me it means bringing a girl into this country and making her work against her will.

In the vast majority of cases this is not what is happening because the girls come here willingly to earn vast amounts of money compared to the poverty they encounter in their own country.

I am currently in the Philippines where 20 years olds are available all night for less than you would pay for 15 minutes in a Soho walk up ---- little wonder that they would love to work here in the UK. :(;)

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orientalgems owners prosecuted for trafficking

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7720605.stm

i cant believe it's not been started yet, so i'm starting it now.

leaving aside, the obvious difficulty in applying any law that holds that punters are responsible for ensuring a WG is not trafficked, who thinks they would or should report any WG they thought was trafficked?

I would, without hesitation, report any brothel or sex operation which I thought was providing trafficked girls or, indeed, girls coerced in any way. Human trafficking has to be one of the most abhorrent crimes in our world today.

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...who thinks they would or should report any WG they thought was trafficked?

I would report the fact, certainly, and leave and never go back to wherever it was. I'm absolutely in favour of prosecuting traffickers.

However, it may be difficult to tell if a WG has been trafficked, so criminalising punters is uncertain ground, IMO. HH and her cohort have been banging on about "prostitution=slavery so all punters are criminals," which is rubbish. Perhaps the debate is beginning to separate some of the hyperbole from the reality - but I'm not holding my breath!

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In the vast majority of cases this is not what is happening because the girls come here willingly to earn vast amounts of money compared to the poverty they encounter in their own country.

I am currently in the Philippines where 20 years olds are available all night for less than you would pay for 15 minutes in a Soho walk up ---- little wonder that they would love to work here in the UK. :(;)

I'd dispute your use of the word "willingly" here. Being forced into prostitution to feed a family, or to be less of a burden on that family isn't a choice - at least, in our terms. No-one need go without food in this country, and although a life on benefits provides no luxury whatsoever (or shouldn't), turning to prostitution to provide a better life, or luxuries, is at least some kind of choice (albeit a poor one).

I realise this is a grey area for many people - and I'm by no means having a "go" at you - it's just that I often find the choice of the word "willingly" in the case of economic migrants a poor one, because where's the choice? I have the same doubts regarding sex tourism, and wonder how many girls would work if they could receive basic subsidence for themselves and their family. Unless that happens, I see no choice.

Edited by Ailsa
Messed up the quoting.

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First of all we have to determine what "trafficked" actually means,

done to death already,

What Constitutes Trafficking in the United Kingdom

to me it means bringing a girl into this country and making her work against her will.

well you are wrong...

besides the offense will be "someone who pay to have sex with someone who is controlled for someone's gain"

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith will shortly announce an overhaul of prostitution law, making it an offence for a man to buy sex from a prostitute if she is 'controlled for the gain' of another person. This is expected to be so widely drafted that it could cover up to nine out of 10 sex workers, not just those trafficked into the sex trade but those controlled by pimps or even by drug habits.

Ministers hope that while it will technically remain legal to pay for sex so long as a woman agrees freely, many men will be frightened off because it will be so difficult to be sure any particular prostitute falls into that category.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/nov/09/harriet-harman-defence-of-provocation

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I have the same doubts regarding sex tourism, and wonder how many girls would work if they could receive basic subsidence for themselves and their family. Unless that happens, I see no choice.

Yes, well you would say that wouldn't you. :(

Prostitutes in the third world go "on the game" for the same reason as you and that is to earn huge amounts of money that they would never achieve by working in a "normal job".

The amounts on money earnt may be different but the principles are the same. ;)

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well you are wrong...

besides the offense will be "someone who pay to have sex with someone who is controlled for someone's gain"

No YOU are wrong.

First of all this law will never be passed and secondly it would never hold up in court, a decent solicitor would get the client off, no doubt in my mind.

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orientalgems owners prosecuted for trafficking

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7720605.stm

i cant believe it's not been started yet, so i'm starting it now.

leaving aside, the obvious difficulty in applying any law that holds that punters are responsible for ensuring a WG is not trafficked, who thinks they would or should report any WG they thought was trafficked?

Seems a bit of public relations stunt through bashing the weak.

What about the countless dodgy English schools who issue invitation letters in return for cash and never see the students? It would be wrong to expose them as many are members of British Council. I am surprised that there is not much noise about how these girls came to London in the first place and how they managed to get a visa.

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No YOU are wrong.

First of all this law will never be passed and secondly it would never hold up in court, a decent solicitor would get the client off, no doubt in my mind.

I see your pulling the wool over your own eyes as usual Jimmy.

Now, I'm assuming the BBC article is factually correct. It says these men have been jailed for exploiting women, many of whom were effectively commodities who had been traded. Those prosecuted had been charged with "conspiracy to traffic women within the UK for the purpose of sexual exploitation". Like it or not Jimmy, but the law has clearly decided - in this instance anyway - what is and what isn't trafficking.

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responses here are interesting but have strayed quite speedily away from the point (which maybe was not that interesting) which was, would you/should you report cases where you thought trafficking/exploitation was happening?

maybe another way to ask the question is to say:-

HAS anyone EVER reported such an instance, and has anyone EVER seen a lady they suspected afterwards may have been in such a situation?

indeed

has anyone been a customer of oriental gems and did they have any kind of suspicion at all?

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I'd dispute your use of the word "willingly" here. Being forced into prostitution to feed a family, or to be less of a burden on that family isn't a choice - at least, in our terms. No-one need go without food in this country, and although a life on benefits provides no luxury whatsoever (or shouldn't), turning to prostitution to provide a better life, or luxuries, is at least some kind of choice (albeit a poor one).

I realise this is a grey area for many people - and I'm by no means having a "go" at you - it's just that I often find the choice of the word "willingly" in the case of economic migrants a poor one, because where's the choice? I have the same doubts regarding sex tourism, and wonder how many girls would work if they could receive basic subsidence for themselves and their family. Unless that happens, I see no choice.

I absolutely agree.

How daunting is it to visit another country on your own if you've never travelled before in your life? Add to that that these girls then put their trust into the hands of traffickers only to be charged exorberant fees for the priviledge.

It is not a free willed girl who leaves her family to work in a strange country where the money she earns is way more than prostituting herself in her home town, but someone who is desperate. Hence why girls like that are easily exploited.

For some men it's easier to ignore the agony of the decission the girl has made and to put it down to free choice, forgetting the duress involved!

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It's true it can often be a fuzzy line when you try to ascertain what is and what isn't trafficking. The Asian escorts I've chatted to pretty much all say a similar thing of they wanted the work, they're not sex slaves or something, they came here to do this work, to make an absolute fortune for two or three years and then retire back in Thailand. Yes they pay the 'agent/trafficker' to get them here, to do the photo shoot, to put them on websites and to organise and book their client

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It looks as though they are trying to add 1 and 1 together to make 3, by making lots of references to trafficking even though the charges were dropped because of lack of evidence. They were only found guilty of money laundering and prostitution.

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It looks as though they are trying to add 1 and 1 together to make 3, by making lots of references to trafficking even though the charges were dropped because of lack of evidence. They were only found guilty of money laundering and prostitution.

Exactly. The reason that Trafficking charges could not be brought was that despite all the fuss made about it, its almost non-existent outside the chinese sector although it does happen, and none of these girls were trafficked they all came voluntarily. Many of them accepted the terms and conditions in advance, if not all, though its possible that some had their conditions worsened once they arrived, which is severe exploitation. What the gang was in effect doing was saying that 'Its so easy for you to make money here that we're going to increase the cost of facilitating you to do it'

Interesting that a specific girl was quoted for whom a guy bought out the contract, I wonder if it was he that drew the police attention to OG in the first place, or did I wonder the police buy out a contarct in order to get an informant?

You never know what will get through the house of commons but it won't get through the lords.

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Yes, well you would say that wouldn't you. :(

Eh? Why would I? I'm no longer a prostitute, and haven't been for seven months. Even so, that's a playground argument; I could say the same thing about your points, ie: that you prefer to believe everything in the garden is rosy, so that you can continue paying for sex abroad with a clear conscience. In other words, "you would say that, wouldn't you?"

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It's true it can often be a fuzzy line when you try to ascertain what is and what isn't trafficking. The Asian escorts I've chatted to pretty much all say a similar thing of they wanted the work, they're not sex slaves or something, they came here to do this work, to make an absolute fortune for two or three years and then retire back in Thailand. Yes they pay the 'agent/trafficker' to get them here, to do the photo shoot, to put them on websites and to organise and book their client

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Isn't this a bit like being prosecuted for theft if you unwittingly buy stolen goods ?

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Exactly. The reason that Trafficking charges could not be brought was that despite all the fuss made about it, its almost non-existent outside the chinese sector although it does happen, and none of these girls were trafficked they all came voluntarily. Many of them accepted the terms and conditions in advance, if not all, though its possible that some had their conditions worsened once they arrived, which is severe exploitation. What the gang was in effect doing was saying that 'Its so easy for you to make money here that we're going to increase the cost of facilitating you to do it'

Interesting that a specific girl was quoted for whom a guy bought out the contract, I wonder if it was he that drew the police attention to OG in the first place, or did I wonder the police buy out a contarct in order to get an informant?

You never know what will get through the house of commons but it won't get through the lords.

I actually remember 'Helen'. She was one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen, a 'natural' D-cup and a dazzling figure, but much more reserved (not to say shy) than the typical Thai and I never booked her again. I doubt she was in circulation for more than a month or two before she left OG, which was at least a year prior to the raids. The Plod must have been on the case for quite awhile!:(

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has anyone been a customer of oriental gems and did they have any kind of suspicion at all?

Yes, and no. I probably saw as many as 20 of their WGs over a 2-3 year period, a number of them several times and a couple of those intensively for nearly a year. I would be surprised if a single one of them had been coerced into coming to the UK - in fact, I would be surprised if a single one of them had not been eager to come in the first place - and a fair number of the girls remain here in London after having been 'liberated' last April. On the other hand, the gathering and selling-on process does sound rather dodgy, especially viewed from a western prospective, and the total 'start-up' cost to the girls was pretty high. Having said that, one of the girls claimed to me that she had cleared over £250k since coming here less than two years ago, and I believe her. Not surprisingly, she has hardened over that time and no longer is all that interesting or fun to be with (she used to cook gourmet Thai meals for us), but I'm sure that she still feels that it has all been worthwhile.:(

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Well none of the group were done for trafficking and if they cant get a conviction on them its clear they probably arent going to get one on anyone. From what i know they pay the girls some money up front and they then work off their contracts. You have to remember that thais have a very different culture to ours so i doubt they would have a problem with it. I once offered to make a cup of tea for a thai lady who was over visiting friends and she was so shocked and told me that it was a womans job to make tea for the man! Its interesting that someone paid off her contract as you would think with what was going on they wouldnt of been in a position to make her honour it.

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Even so, that's a playground argument; I could say the same thing about your points, ie: that you prefer to believe everything in the garden is rosy, so that you can continue paying for sex abroad with a clear conscience. In other words, "you would say that, wouldn't you?"

I have nothing to feel guilty about, I am merely spreading some wealth around the world----- better than them sitting in a factory making shirts for $10 a day.:(

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Well none of the group were done for trafficking and if they cant get a conviction on them its clear they probably arent going to get one on anyone.

If they can't convict the "traffickers" what chance do have if they try to prosecute the punters --- zero that's what. :(

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