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MatureUschi

Does Liberalising Prostitution Laws Just Benefit Pimps?

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Not unless the legalizing the sale of alcohol in the US after Prohibition benefitted criminal bootleggers.

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Well, it did, surely? Once their activities were no longer illegal, they were able to build huge distilleries and bottling plants...

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Good point. I suppose if agency owners come under the heading pimps, you're right, legalization would benefit them. But your question was would liberalising prostitution laws *just* benefit pimps (=same as agency owners if no coercion or trickery involved. ) I reckon no, it would benefit WGs and punters as well.

Edited by TheCrow7

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Perhaps it does benefit the pimps but surely the pimps in a legalised system would be under far greater scrutiny from the authorities than they are now.

Presumably you'd get a better class of pimp ?

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Perhaps it does benefit the pimps but surely the pimps in a legalised system would be under far greater scrutiny from the authorities than they are now.

Presumably you'd get a better class of pimp ?

Indeed, that would be the hope i imagine. A CRB check may become standard for example and ultimately they would be under that official scrutiny. It might well get rid of the many low lifes about now, or at least rid of some of them. WGs would benefit as they could legally work together if they so wished and in theory punters wouldnt need to worry a WG was trafficked or underage. There are potential downsides though.

 

Pimps arent needed in my view IF a WG or WGs do the job themselves, its whether they would be prepared to do it. It obviously means taking on the advertising and organising though of course.

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@MatureUschi, When the USA criminalized alcoholic drinks it was a golden opportunity for organised crime gangs to make a fortune exploiting the fact people were unable to obtain alcohol legally. And that's what happened- the alcohol industry was in the hands of criminals who had far more money and power now that alcohol was illegal. With the illegal market for alcohol booming and people getting wasted on illegal booze (which usually had a far higher ABV%) crime was actually higher than when alcohol was legal.

 

From the US prohibition we learned if you make something illegal then people are still going to obtain it anyway by illegal means with the help of criminals who profit. And this underground market brings crime.

 

Once their activities were no longer illegal, they were able to build huge distilleries and bottling plants...

 

 

Distilleries and bottling plants aren't ran by criminal gangs and the profits don't go to criminal gangs.

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Not unless the legalizing the sale of alcohol in the US after Prohibition benefitted criminal bootleggers.

 

 

Well, it did, surely? Once their activities were no longer illegal, they were able to build huge distilleries and bottling plants...

It did short term as when prohibition ended it was the criminal organisations that had the distilleries etc as well as the importation and sitribution networks already in place.It didnt last though and it seems many just cashed out and sold on as once legal the profit margins dropped as you now have price competition as well as a dropping of profit margins as whats legal can now be taxed,also you now had certain standards to maintain so they lost things like the cheap home distilleries and the cheap spike booze.

Whether liberalising the prostitution laws over here would have the same effect is another matter.Those pimps who use coerced in any sense women would still fall foul of the law,as would those who use illegal immigrants so there would be no change there.If there was a problematic pimp it may make the ladies more liable to report them.I suppose you could say,like the end of prohibiton they could benefit in already having the premises set up but i'm guessing theyd be some kind of licensing involved which would limit where you could set up,like in some US states where you cannot set up an establishment of an adult nature within x distance from a church,school or playground,so again,it wouldnt give them much of an advantage.

In reference to the article.It seems to be suiting the pimps at the moment,charging what they want.When theres more competition however,like with any trade,if they want the best workers they will become more competative

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It did short term as when prohibition ended it was the criminal organisations that had the distilleries etc as well as the importation and sitribution networks already in place.It didnt last though and it seems many just cashed out and sold on as once legal the profit margins dropped as you now have price competition as well as a dropping of profit margins as whats legal can now be taxed,also you now had certain standards to maintain so they lost things like the cheap home distilleries and the cheap spike booze.

Whether liberalising the prostitution laws over here would have the same effect is another matter.Those pimps who use coerced in any sense women would still fall foul of the law,as would those who use illegal immigrants so there would be no change there.If there was a problematic pimp it may make the ladies more liable to report them.I suppose you could say,like the end of prohibiton they could benefit in already having the premises set up but i'm guessing theyd be some kind of licensing involved which would limit where you could set up,like in some US states where you cannot set up an establishment of an adult nature within x distance from a church,school or playground,so again,it wouldnt give them much of an advantage.

In reference to the article.It seems to be suiting the pimps at the moment,charging what they want.When theres more competition however,like with any trade,if they want the best workers they will become more competative

How does it work in Australia?

 

The trouble is the free market and many people will take the chance to make a quick buck out of others without any thought, or moralising where ever they can and they'll think they are fully justified in doing so. Happens across many industries, many situations in life already. Even if 'laws' are liberalised it's still an occupation women generally want or need to make a good return from to balance out some of the consequences from the work, and the money is an incentive. Ignorance and vulnerability in the industry then leads to exploitation whether it's legal or not.

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Liberalising some laws relating to prostitution makes good sense, and could well reduce crime linked to parts of it. ' It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it.....'

 

I like the comment from YourSlave on Prohibition. The War on Drugs has increased drug crime and has virtually destroyed a couple of countries. Bit like The War on Terror, really, but with more unnecessary deaths.

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Pimps arent needed in my view IF a WG or WGs do the job themselves, its whether they would be prepared to do it. It obviously means taking on the advertising and organising though of course.

Exactly this. People love to low blow with the word pimp even towards the most professional of set ups which benefit the girls working their greatly. What some don't realise is that if all the parlours and agencies disappeared so would a lot of the girls. A lot work in parlours as they want to wipe the industry off  their hands as they walk out the door on an evening, its the perfect set up to them x

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Liberalising some laws relating to prostitution makes good sense, and could well reduce crime linked to parts of it. ' It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it.....'

 

I like the comment from YourSlave on Prohibition. The War on Drugs has increased drug crime and has virtually destroyed a couple of countries. Bit like The War on Terror, really, but with more unnecessary deaths.

I agree.

 

I'm all for legalising some laws relating to prostitution, but there will always be an underbelly of criminal activity associated with it, as long as we have drugs and relative poverty in society. For example, there is still a very active street scene in both the Netherlands and Germany, despite far more liberal laws relating to the sex trade. No woman with a drug addition will be able to work in any legalised flat. Bad for business. Therefore, without tackling societies problems wholesale, enacting more liberal legislation can only be a partial solution. 

Edited by drzhivago

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Making more severe anti sex worker and anti sex laws actually benefits pimps! As anything driving the biz underground or forcing it more onto the streets will enhance 'Security' needs!

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Strawberry asks" how does it work in Australia?" Well it depends on the state-Queensland, Victoria and ACT have legalized prostitution-that is it is some aspects of prostitution are legal (brothels and single workers working alone-more than two workers counts as a brothel. In Queensland escort agencies are illegal but not in Victoria or NSW. Street prostitution is illegal everywhere except in specific areas of Sydney NSW.

 

 NSW has what it calls a decriminalized system-that is there are no laws specific to prostitution-it is supposed to be regulated like any other business-but there are zoning controls on the siting of brothels the controls are operated by the local councils who vary in their attitude. All states check on brothel owners. The problem is that in some states (esp Queensland) the cost of getting a brothel license is such that many brothels (which could be only two workers) operate illegally, the number of illegal brothels (which could be only two workers) outnumber the legal ones. So Australia has a patchwork of legislation. But on the whole pimps (that is where an exploitative individual controls a few girls) are very rare-unless you count brothel or escort agency owners as pimps.

 

New Zealand operates a decriminalized system,(which has operated for over ten years) street prostitution is also allowed although subject to nuisance laws. Pimping is very rare-a comprehensive survey revealed that less than 6% of se workers were controlled by someone else

 

Both New Zealand and Australia have had a legal tradition and laws very similar to that in the UK (a hangover from the British colonial era) and where legalization or decriminalization has operated (for over ten years in the case of NZ and some states in Australia) the sky has not fallen in. Recently in Canada (which again has similar laws to those in the UK) the supreme court has held the laws to be unconstitutional in that the laws effectively prevent sex workers from working safely (i.e. brothels are prohibited and escort agency managers and drivers and bodyguards could be deemed to be living off the proceeds of prostitution-i.e. pimping). The supreme court has given parliament a year to come up with legislation that passes constitutional muster. Given the conservative nature of the present Canadian government they might try total prohibition or even opt for the Swedish model. The chances of a switch to the New Zealand model seem remote-here is hoping,

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Strawberry asks" how does it work in Australia?" Well it depends on the state-Queensland, Victoria and ACT have legalized prostitution-that is it is some aspects of prostitution are legal (brothels and single workers working alone-more than two workers counts as a brothel. In Queensland escort agencies are illegal but not in Victoria or NSW. Street prostitution is illegal everywhere except in specific areas of Sydney NSW.

 

 NSW has what it calls a decriminalized system-that is there are no laws specific to prostitution-it is supposed to be regulated like any other business-but there are zoning controls on the siting of brothels the controls are operated by the local councils who vary in their attitude. All states check on brothel owners. The problem is that in some states (esp Queensland) the cost of getting a brothel license is such that many brothels (which could be only two workers) operate illegally, the number of illegal brothels (which could be only two workers) outnumber the legal ones. So Australia has a patchwork of legislation. But on the whole pimps (that is where an exploitative individual controls a few girls) are very rare-unless you count brothel or escort agency owners as pimps.

 

New Zealand operates a decriminalized system,(which has operated for over ten years) street prostitution is also allowed although subject to nuisance laws. Pimping is very rare-a comprehensive survey revealed that less than 6% of se workers were controlled by someone else

 

Both New Zealand and Australia have had a legal tradition and laws very similar to that in the UK (a hangover from the British colonial era) and where legalization or decriminalization has operated (for over ten years in the case of NZ and some states in Australia) the sky has not fallen in. Recently in Canada (which again has similar laws to those in the UK) the supreme court has held the laws to be unconstitutional in that the laws effectively prevent sex workers from working safely (i.e. brothels are prohibited and escort agency managers and drivers and bodyguards could be deemed to be living off the proceeds of prostitution-i.e. pimping). The supreme court has given parliament a year to come up with legislation that passes constitutional muster. Given the conservative nature of the present Canadian government they might try total prohibition or even opt for the Swedish model. The chances of a switch to the New Zealand model seem remote-here is hoping,

Thanks for the information here. Interesting where you say the cost of a Brothel license means some operate illegally, i assume thats because the cost is too high for these people to pay it from their point of view so they chance operating illegally instead.

 

One question though, are Oral Without (OWO) and FK/DFK (French Kissing/Deep French Kissing) on offer generally do you know?

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Strawberry asks" how does it work in Australia?" Well it depends on the state-Queensland, Victoria and ACT have legalized prostitution-that is it is some aspects of prostitution are legal (brothels and single workers working alone-more than two workers counts as a brothel. In Queensland escort agencies are illegal but not in Victoria or NSW. Street prostitution is illegal everywhere except in specific areas of Sydney NSW.

 

 NSW has what it calls a decriminalized system-that is there are no laws specific to prostitution-it is supposed to be regulated like any other business-but there are zoning controls on the siting of brothels the controls are operated by the local councils who vary in their attitude. All states check on brothel owners. The problem is that in some states (esp Queensland) the cost of getting a brothel license is such that many brothels (which could be only two workers) operate illegally, the number of illegal brothels (which could be only two workers) outnumber the legal ones. So Australia has a patchwork of legislation. But on the whole pimps (that is where an exploitative individual controls a few girls) are very rare-unless you count brothel or escort agency owners as pimps.

 

New Zealand operates a decriminalized system,(which has operated for over ten years) street prostitution is also allowed although subject to nuisance laws. Pimping is very rare-a comprehensive survey revealed that less than 6% of se workers were controlled by someone else

 

Both New Zealand and Australia have had a legal tradition and laws very similar to that in the UK (a hangover from the British colonial era) and where legalization or decriminalization has operated (for over ten years in the case of NZ and some states in Australia) the sky has not fallen in. Recently in Canada (which again has similar laws to those in the UK) the supreme court has held the laws to be unconstitutional in that the laws effectively prevent sex workers from working safely (i.e. brothels are prohibited and escort agency managers and drivers and bodyguards could be deemed to be living off the proceeds of prostitution-i.e. pimping). The supreme court has given parliament a year to come up with legislation that passes constitutional muster. Given the conservative nature of the present Canadian government they might try total prohibition or even opt for the Swedish model. The chances of a switch to the New Zealand model seem remote-here is hoping,

Canadian PM, Steven Harper is an evangelical so is likely to be anti many aspects  of consensual sex not just paid for consensual interaction!

However, if they legislate to bring in the insane Swedish model, the constitutional court will have no option but to throw it out again as the reason why the current laws have been thrown out is they endanger sex worker safety which is the main thing which The Swedish Model does above all! :angry: :angry:

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Well, it did, surely? Once their activities were no longer illegal, they were able to build huge distilleries and bottling plants...

 

It doesn't benefit existing pimps because it reduces barriers of entry into the industry and so attracts new people and greater competition.

 

It benefits prostitutes and customers in terms of safety primarily

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I'd be interested in how the licensing system works. I would assume, for example, that residents might have to be informed and would be able to object. Though I would also assume that even the licensed ones don't openly advertize the nature of their activities as such, but are decently discreet like HOD in South Ken.

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Some  answers

Smiths says "...the cost of a Brothel license means some operate illegally, i assume tha'ts because the cost is too high for these people to pay it from their point of view so they chance operating"

 

Well yes and no. In Queensland (prostitution legalized in 1999)  the cost is high-when prostitution was legalized the Prostitution Licensing Authority (PLA) was set up-the original hope was that it would be self financing and the brothel license fees (and the fees to get a managers certificate) were set  high (around $3000 PA) and only the better financed brothels could afford this-and this favoured large brothels-although there is a room limit. In addition there are silly restrictions so that brothels are forbidden to advertise for staff (managers, accountants, cleaners etc) and certainly advertising for WGs is not allowed. It is reckoned that in this state 75% of prostitution occurs outside the legal brothels (of which if memory serves there are only about 25 in the whole state)-but remember only a single woman working alone was exempt from the licensing requirements-women could not work together (and that could mean a woman plus a receptionist was not allowed) nor until recently could they hire drivers. In addition escort agencies are also illegal. It is small wonder that much of prostitution in Queensland remains illegal. However the PLA does have an excellent website (http://www.pla.qld.gov.au/)  and they publish a monthly new bulletin "in touch" and there are many reports on the operation of the effects of legalization on that site.

 

In other states such as Victoria there are claims that legalization has lead to an explosion of the illegal sector (Sheila Jeffreys and her erstwhile student Mary Sullivan -both fervent abolitionists) make this claim-generally based on Newspaper articles-whose source is often the Brothel owners association who are tying to get the authorities to remove the competitors and so exaggerate the extent of illegal operations )(.. A proper survey of the number of illegal brothels does not support those claims http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20920108.There are however a large number of mostly Asian operated "rub and tug" massage parlours where sex seems to be available-these are illegal unless they have a license (but massage alone is legal-and remember throughout SE Asia there are many straight massage and beauty parlours where sex is not on offer)-they tend to set-up and close down frequently staying just ahead of the brothel inspectors. Although the cost of getting a license is a factor in whether operators choose to operate legally or not I think many -especially Asian run brothels just choose to ignore the law-perhaps because the employees are working illegally (either illegal immigrants or in breach of their visa conditions-that is tourist or student visas).

 

Smiths also asks "...are Oral Without (OWO) and FK/DFK (French Kissing/Deep French Kissing) on offer generally do you know?". the legislation in all the decriminalised and legalized regimes requires all sex (which includes oral) to be done with a condom-how well observed this is in practice is unclear. DFK I think is excluded from the legislation and so allowed. You should check on the Australian version of punternet (Punter planet .http://forums.punterplanet.com/forum/20-australian-reviews/) for more info.

 

Mr Bloom asks "...I'd be interested in how the licensing system works. I would assume, for example, that residents might have to be informed and would be able to object. Though I would also assume that even the licensed ones don't openly advertise the nature of their activities as such, but are decently discreet like HOD in South Ken".

 

Again in depends. In New Zealand the licensing requirements and costs are minimal-the owners have to be NZ citizens and not have a criminal record. Being a decriminalized system (that is brothels are regarded as any other business they are subject to some planning restrictions managed by the local authorities). However SOOBs-small owner occupied brothels may have up to four workers and are exempt from licensing and so may operate freely in residential areas. It is obviously not in their interests to draw attention to their activities. Larger brothels do require a license and are subject to planning controls and sometimes residents object-although the objection must be on planning -not moral grounds, although the local authorities may try to apply over restrictive conditions in which case there is an appeals procedure. there have been four such cases-and in two of these cases local objections were overruled.

 

In Queensland the PLA deals with applicants-they try to site brothels away from residential areas and mainly in industrial areas or semi industrial areas (places  where there are garages, car dealerships and the like). this again is a disincentive to small brothels which hence set up  illegally. In NSW the local authorities have been left with little guidance as to where brothels might be sited-they tend to put limits on the distance from churches and schools and frequently raise (prompted by activist residents) spurious barriers in the way of applications (like the number of parking spaces (conditions not applied to restaurants) or lack of disabled access (while insisting brothels must not be at street level)) to dress up moral concerns or "distaste" as a planning issue. The courts have been pretty good until recently in throwing out these objections (but only the well funded can afford the protracted appeals).There is some pressure to have a stricter licensing regime (this pressure usually reflects the moral stance of the state  government of the time-the Labor party favouring decriminalization the liberals tighter regulation)(http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/publications.nsf/key/Regulationofbrothels:anupdate/$File/E-brief.regulation+of+brothels.pdf, )

 

Interestingly some recent academic work has looked areas in NSW where there were once strong objections to the operation of brothels and found that those who object in the planning process do not represent the views of the neighbourhood who are much more tolerant  ( Prior P & Crofts P 2012 Effects of sex premises on neighbourhoods:Residents, local planning and the geographies of a controversial land use New Zealand Geographer (2012) 68, 130–140 )(http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-7939.2012.01228.x/abstract) . As long as the brothels are not too overt it seems that they are reasonable well tolerated.

A problem is that many of the uninformed public see brothels as similar to those they see in the movies of the wild west with scantily clad women flaunting themselves, it is hard to know if prostitution were legalized in the UK whether mega brothels might set up-which might need some sort of control-or whether it would be a cottage industry-along the lines of the New Zealand SOOBs-

 

The lessons for those seeking legalization or decriminalization is not to set up a bureaucratic and expensive licensing system such as operates in Queensland, to permit SOOBs to operate without a license (but perhaps with some control  to make sure they are effectively independent and not operated by criminals and be clear about an inspection regime) and perhaps to place an upper limit on the size of brothels and their signage.....answers on a post card...

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Some  answers

Smiths says "...the cost of a Brothel license means some operate illegally, i assume tha'ts because the cost is too high for these people to pay it from their point of view so they chance operating"

 

Well yes and no. In Queensland (prostitution legalized in 1999)  the cost is high-when prostitution was legalized the Prostitution Licensing Authority (PLA) was set up-the original hope was that it would be self financing and the brothel license fees (and the fees to get a managers certificate) were set  high (around $3000 PA) and only the better financed brothels could afford this-and this favoured large brothels-although there is a room limit. In addition there are silly restrictions so that brothels are forbidden to advertise for staff (managers, accountants, cleaners etc) and certainly advertising for WGs is not allowed. It is reckoned that in this state 75% of prostitution occurs outside the legal brothels (of which if memory serves there are only about 25 in the whole state)-but remember only a single woman working alone was exempt from the licensing requirements-women could not work together (and that could mean a woman plus a receptionist was not allowed) nor until recently could they hire drivers. In addition escort agencies are also illegal. It is small wonder that much of prostitution in Queensland remains illegal. However the PLA does have an excellent website (http://www.pla.qld.gov.au/)  and they publish a monthly new bulletin "in touch" and there are many reports on the operation of the effects of legalization on that site.

 

In other states such as Victoria there are claims that legalization has lead to an explosion of the illegal sector (Sheila Jeffreys and her erstwhile student Mary Sullivan -both fervent abolitionists) make this claim-generally based on Newspaper articles-whose source is often the Brothel owners association who are tying to get the authorities to remove the competitors and so exaggerate the extent of illegal operations )(.. A proper survey of the number of illegal brothels does not support those claims .

 

There are however a large number of mostly Asian operated "rub and tug" massage parlours where sex seems to be available-these are illegal unless they have a license (but massage alone is legal-and remember throughout SE Asia there are many straight massage and beauty parlours where sex is not on offer-and many massage parlours in OZ may be legit)-they tend to set-up and close down frequently staying just ahead of the brothel inspectors. Although the cost of getting a license is a factor in whether operators choose to operate legally or not I think many -especially Asian run brothels just choose to ignore the law-perhaps because the employees are working illegally (either illegal immigrants or in breach of their visa conditions-that is tourist or student visas).

 

Smiths also asks "...are Oral Without (OWO) and FK/DFK (French Kissing/Deep French Kissing) on offer generally do you know?". the legislation in all the decriminalised and legalized regimes requires all sex (which includes oral) to be done with a condom-how well observed this is in practice is unclear. DFK I think is excluded from the legislation and so allowed. You should check on the Australian version of punternet (Punter planet .http://forums.punterplanet.com/forum/20-australian-reviews/) for more info.

 

Mr Bloom asks "...I'd be interested in how the licensing system works. I would assume, for example, that residents might have to be informed and would be able to object. Though I would also assume that even the licensed ones don't openly advertise the nature of their activities as such, but are decently discreet like HOD in South Ken".

 

Again in depends. In New Zealand the licensing requirements and costs are minimal-the owners have to be NZ citizens and not have a criminal record. Being a decriminalized system (that is brothels are regarded as any other business they are subject to some planning restrictions managed by the local authorities). However SOOBs-small owner occupied brothels may have up to four workers and are exempt from licensing and so may operate freely in residential areas. It is obviously not in their interests to draw attention to their activities as they are subject to laws on nuisance.. Larger brothels do require a license and are subject to planning controls and sometimes residents object-although the objection must be on planning -not moral grounds, although the local authorities (known as territorial authorities) may try to apply over restrictive conditions in which case there is an appeals procedure. there have been four such cases-and in two of these cases local objections were overruled.

 

In Queensland the PLA deals with applicants-they try to site brothels away from residential areas and mainly in industrial areas or semi industrial areas (places  where there are garages, car dealerships and the like). this again is a disincentive to small brothels which hence set up  illegally. In NSW the local authorities have been left with little guidance as to where brothels might be sited-they tend to put limits on the distance from churches and schools and frequently raise (prompted by activist residents) spurious barriers in the way of applications (like the number of parking spaces (conditions not applied to restaurants) or lack of disabled access (while insisting brothels must not be at street level)) to dress up moral concerns or "distaste" as a planning issue. The courts have been pretty good until recently in throwing out these objections (but only the well funded can afford the protracted appeals).There is some pressure to have a stricter licensing regime (this pressure usually reflects the moral stance of the state  government of the time-the Labor party favouring decriminalization the liberals tighter regulation)(http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/publications.nsf/key/Regulationofbrothels:anupdate/$File/E-brief.regulation+of+brothels.pdf, )

 

Interestingly some recent academic work has looked areas in NSW where there were once strong objections to the operation of brothels and found that those who object in the planning process do not represent the views of the neighbourhood who are much more tolerant  ( Prior P & Crofts P 2012 Effects of sex premises on neighbourhoods:Residents, local planning and the geographies of a controversial land use New Zealand Geographer (2012) 68, 130–140 )(http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-7939.2012.01228.x/abstract) . As long as the brothels are not too overt it seems that they are reasonable well tolerated.

A problem is that many of the uninformed public see brothels as similar to those they see in the movies of the wild west with scantily clad women flaunting themselves, it is hard to know if prostitution were legalized in the UK whether mega brothels might set up-which might need some sort of control-or whether it would be a cottage industry-along the lines of the New Zealand SOOBs-

 

The lessons for those seeking legalization or decriminalization is not to set up a bureaucratic and expensive licensing system such as operates in Queensland, to permit SOOBs to operate without a license (but perhaps with some control  to make sure they are effectively independent and not operated by criminals and be clear about an inspection regime) and perhaps to place an upper limit on the size of brothels and their signage.....answers on a post card...

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Some  answers

Smiths says "...the cost of a Brothel license means some operate illegally, i assume tha'ts because the cost is too high for these people to pay it from their point of view so they chance operating"

 

Well yes and no. In Queensland (prostitution legalized in 1999)  the cost is high-when prostitution was legalized the Prostitution Licensing Authority (PLA) was set up-the original hope was that it would be self financing and the brothel license fees (and the fees to get a managers certificate) were set  high (around $3000 PA) and only the better financed brothels could afford this-and this favoured large brothels-although there is a room limit. In addition there are silly restrictions so that brothels are forbidden to advertise for staff (managers, accountants, cleaners etc) and certainly advertising for WGs is not allowed. It is reckoned that in this state 75% of prostitution occurs outside the legal brothels (of which if memory serves there are only about 25 in the whole state)-but remember only a single woman working alone was exempt from the licensing requirements-women could not work together (and that could mean a woman plus a receptionist was not allowed) nor until recently could they hire drivers. In addition escort agencies are also illegal. It is small wonder that much of prostitution in Queensland remains illegal. However the PLA does have an excellent website (http://www.pla.qld.gov.au/)  and they publish a monthly new bulletin "in touch" and there are many reports on the operation of the effects of legalization on that site.

 

In other states such as Victoria there are claims that legalization has lead to an explosion of the illegal sector (Sheila Jeffreys and her erstwhile student Mary Sullivan -both fervent abolitionists) make this claim-generally based on Newspaper articles-whose source is often the Brothel owners association who are tying to get the authorities to remove the competitors and so exaggerate the extent of illegal operations )(.. A proper survey of the number of illegal brothels does not support those claims .

 

There are however a large number of mostly Asian operated "rub and tug" massage parlours where sex seems to be available-these are illegal unless they have a license (but massage alone is legal-and remember throughout SE Asia there are many straight massage and beauty parlours where sex is not on offer-and many massage parlours in OZ may be legit)-they tend to set-up and close down frequently staying just ahead of the brothel inspectors. Although the cost of getting a license is a factor in whether operators choose to operate legally or not I think many -especially Asian run brothels just choose to ignore the law-perhaps because the employees are working illegally (either illegal immigrants or in breach of their visa conditions-that is tourist or student visas).

 

Smiths also asks "...are Oral Without (OWO) and FK/DFK (French Kissing/Deep French Kissing) on offer generally do you know?". the legislation in all the decriminalised and legalized regimes requires all sex (which includes oral) to be done with a condom-how well observed this is in practice is unclear. DFK I think is excluded from the legislation and so allowed. You should check on the Australian version of punternet (Punter planet .http://forums.punterplanet.com/forum/20-australian-reviews/) for more info.

 

Mr Bloom asks "...I'd be interested in how the licensing system works. I would assume, for example, that residents might have to be informed and would be able to object. Though I would also assume that even the licensed ones don't openly advertise the nature of their activities as such, but are decently discreet like HOD in South Ken".

 

Again in depends. In New Zealand the licensing requirements and costs are minimal-the owners have to be NZ citizens and not have a criminal record. Being a decriminalized system (that is brothels are regarded as any other business they are subject to some planning restrictions managed by the local authorities). However SOOBs-small owner occupied brothels may have up to four workers and are exempt from licensing and so may operate freely in residential areas. It is obviously not in their interests to draw attention to their activities as they are subject to laws on nuisance.. Larger brothels do require a license and are subject to planning controls and sometimes residents object-although the objection must be on planning -not moral grounds, although the local authorities (known as territorial authorities) may try to apply over restrictive conditions in which case there is an appeals procedure. there have been four such cases-and in two of these cases local objections were overruled.

 

In Queensland the PLA deals with applicants-they try to site brothels away from residential areas and mainly in industrial areas or semi industrial areas (places  where there are garages, car dealerships and the like). this again is a disincentive to small brothels which hence set up  illegally. In NSW the local authorities have been left with little guidance as to where brothels might be sited-they tend to put limits on the distance from churches and schools and frequently raise (prompted by activist residents) spurious barriers in the way of applications (like the number of parking spaces (conditions not applied to restaurants) or lack of disabled access (while insisting brothels must not be at street level)) to dress up moral concerns or "distaste" as a planning issue. The courts have been pretty good until recently in throwing out these objections (but only the well funded can afford the protracted appeals).There is some pressure to have a stricter licensing regime (this pressure usually reflects the moral stance of the state  government of the time-the Labor party favouring decriminalization the liberals tighter regulation)(http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/publications.nsf/key/Regulationofbrothels:anupdate/$File/E-brief.regulation+of+brothels.pdf, )

 

Interestingly some recent academic work has looked areas in NSW where there were once strong objections to the operation of brothels and found that those who object in the planning process do not represent the views of the neighbourhood who are much more tolerant  ( Prior P & Crofts P 2012 Effects of sex premises on neighbourhoods:Residents, local planning and the geographies of a controversial land use New Zealand Geographer (2012) 68, 130–140 )(http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-7939.2012.01228.x/abstract) . As long as the brothels are not too overt it seems that they are reasonable well tolerated.

A problem is that many of the uninformed public see brothels as similar to those they see in the movies of the wild west with scantily clad women flaunting themselves, it is hard to know if prostitution were legalized in the UK whether mega brothels might set up-which might need some sort of control-or whether it would be a cottage industry-along the lines of the New Zealand SOOBs-

 

The lessons for those seeking legalization or decriminalization is not to set up a bureaucratic and expensive licensing system such as operates in Queensland, to permit SOOBs to operate without a license (but perhaps with some control  to make sure they are effectively independent and not operated by criminals and be clear about an inspection regime) and perhaps to place an upper limit on the size of brothels and their signage.....answers on a post card...

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Sorry about multiple posts when I try do delete the duplicates they all go

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Some  answers

Smiths says "...the cost of a Brothel license means some operate illegally, i assume tha'ts because the cost is too high for these people to pay it from their point of view so they chance operating"

 

Well yes and no. In Queensland (prostitution legalized in 1999)  the cost is high-when prostitution was legalized the Prostitution Licensing Authority (PLA) was set up-the original hope was that it would be self financing and the brothel license fees (and the fees to get a managers certificate) were set  high (around $3000 PA) and only the better financed brothels could afford this-and this favoured large brothels-although there is a room limit. In addition there are silly restrictions so that brothels are forbidden to advertise for staff (managers, accountants, cleaners etc) and certainly advertising for WGs is not allowed. It is reckoned that in this state 75% of prostitution occurs outside the legal brothels (of which if memory serves there are only about 25 in the whole state)-but remember only a single woman working alone was exempt from the licensing requirements-women could not work together (and that could mean a woman plus a receptionist was not allowed) nor until recently could they hire drivers. In addition escort agencies are also illegal. It is small wonder that much of prostitution in Queensland remains illegal. However the PLA does have an excellent website (http://www.pla.qld.gov.au/)  and they publish a monthly new bulletin "in touch" and there are many reports on the operation of the effects of legalization on that site.

 

In other states such as Victoria there are claims that legalization has lead to an explosion of the illegal sector (Sheila Jeffreys and her erstwhile student Mary Sullivan -both fervent abolitionists) make this claim-generally based on Newspaper articles-whose source is often the Brothel owners association who are tying to get the authorities to remove the competitors and so exaggerate the extent of illegal operations )(.. A proper survey of the number of illegal brothels does not support those claims http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20920108.There are however a large number of mostly Asian operated "rub and tug" massage parlours where sex seems to be available-these are illegal unless they have a license (but massage alone is legal-and remember throughout SE Asia there are many straight massage and beauty parlours where sex is not on offer)-they tend to set-up and close down frequently staying just ahead of the brothel inspectors. Although the cost of getting a license is a factor in whether operators choose to operate legally or not I think many -especially Asian run brothels just choose to ignore the law-perhaps because the employees are working illegally (either illegal immigrants or in breach of their visa conditions-that is tourist or student visas).

 

Smiths also asks "...are Oral Without (OWO) and FK/DFK (French Kissing/Deep French Kissing) on offer generally do you know?". the legislation in all the decriminalised and legalized regimes requires all sex (which includes oral) to be done with a condom-how well observed this is in practice is unclear. DFK I think is excluded from the legislation and so allowed. You should check on the Australian version of punternet (Punter planet .http://forums.punterplanet.com/forum/20-australian-reviews/) for more info.

 

Mr Bloom asks "...I'd be interested in how the licensing system works. I would assume, for example, that residents might have to be informed and would be able to object. Though I would also assume that even the licensed ones don't openly advertise the nature of their activities as such, but are decently discreet like HOD in South Ken".

 

Again in depends. In New Zealand the licensing requirements and costs are minimal-the owners have to be NZ citizens and not have a criminal record. Being a decriminalized system (that is brothels are regarded as any other business they are subject to some planning restrictions managed by the local authorities). However SOOBs-small owner occupied brothels may have up to four workers and are exempt from licensing and so may operate freely in residential areas. It is obviously not in their interests to draw attention to their activities. Larger brothels do require a license and are subject to planning controls and sometimes residents object-although the objection must be on planning -not moral grounds, although the local authorities may try to apply over restrictive conditions in which case there is an appeals procedure. there have been four such cases-and in two of these cases local objections were overruled.

 

In Queensland the PLA deals with applicants-they try to site brothels away from residential areas and mainly in industrial areas or semi industrial areas (places  where there are garages, car dealerships and the like). this again is a disincentive to small brothels which hence set up  illegally. In NSW the local authorities have been left with little guidance as to where brothels might be sited-they tend to put limits on the distance from churches and schools and frequently raise (prompted by activist residents) spurious barriers in the way of applications (like the number of parking spaces (conditions not applied to restaurants) or lack of disabled access (while insisting brothels must not be at street level)) to dress up moral concerns or "distaste" as a planning issue. The courts have been pretty good until recently in throwing out these objections (but only the well funded can afford the protracted appeals).There is some pressure to have a stricter licensing regime (this pressure usually reflects the moral stance of the state  government of the time-the Labor party favouring decriminalization the liberals tighter regulation)(http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/publications.nsf/key/Regulationofbrothels:anupdate/$File/E-brief.regulation+of+brothels.pdf, )

 

Interestingly some recent academic work has looked areas in NSW where there were once strong objections to the operation of brothels and found that those who object in the planning process do not represent the views of the neighbourhood who are much more tolerant  ( Prior P & Crofts P 2012 Effects of sex premises on neighbourhoods:Residents, local planning and the geographies of a controversial land use New Zealand Geographer (2012) 68, 130–140 )(http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-7939.2012.01228.x/abstract) . As long as the brothels are not too overt it seems that they are reasonable well tolerated.

A problem is that many of the uninformed public see brothels as similar to those they see in the movies of the wild west with scantily clad women flaunting themselves, it is hard to know if prostitution were legalized in the UK whether mega brothels might set up-which might need some sort of control-or whether it would be a cottage industry-along the lines of the New Zealand SOOBs-

 

The lessons for those seeking legalization or decriminalization is not to set up a bureaucratic and expensive licensing system such as operates in Queensland, to permit SOOBs to operate without a license (but perhaps with some control  to make sure they are effectively independent and not operated by criminals and be clear about an inspection regime) and perhaps to place an upper limit on the size of brothels and their signage.....answers on a post card...

Thanks for the information, very interesting.

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Thanks for the information, very interesting.

 

Yes, indeed. Thanks, Bobbles.

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Define pimp first....its a useless term loaded with racism. Most girls being exploited believe they are in a relationship, think about the poor girls of Rochdale and Oxford. Call it what it is domestic violence and abuse.

 

If it would help managers, probably decrim would help anyone who works in the industry. 

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