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SlickWilly

Bbc 2 Newsnight Debate On Criminalisation In A Few Mins!

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The introduction to tonight's 'Newsnight' has promised a piece on prominent UK politicians supporting criminalisation for buyers of sex and it is to be contrasted with a piece on liberal European attitudes including from Europe's biggest brothel! It's on in a few minutes after their piece on the virtual civil war erupting in the Ukraine!

Betcha, Harmon will appear and a good few fake Socialists!

LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY IN THE BRITISH ISLES AND THE UKRAINE!

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They did advertise "prominent politicians", none appeared, but they said that they had access to a soon to be released Parliamentary inquiry report recommending criminalisation in England and Wales!

Maybe the politicos were some of the lads wandering around in robes in Paradise FKK Stuttgart (apparently Europe's biggest brothel).

Lara Lee was on the panel discussion as was Mary Honeyball, MEP who has succeeded (from what I have read in this forum) in getting a bill to criminalise male punters of female sex workers (no other combination) throughout The EU, as part of gender equality to the second committee stage of The European Parliament, interestingly this madness includes an interesting new variation, to actually also criminalise male punters paying for sex with women outside The EU e.g. in Australia, N.Z. Thailand or Las Vegas, even if the service is fully legal in those jurisdictions!

These nutters are getting more insane by the new time!

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omg I missed it my friend just texted me about im gonna find it on catch up tv though then I will be commenting no doubt! kate lll

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Problem is the the media reflects what it hears and the abolitionist group is much more vocal than we, punters or SP's, are (for obvious reasons)

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They did advertise "prominent politicians", none appeared, but they said that they had access to a soon to be released Parliamentary inquiry report recommending criminalisation in England and Wales!

Maybe the politicos were some of the lads wandering around in robes in Paradise FKK Stuttgart (apparently Europe's biggest brothel).

Lara Lee was on the panel discussion as was Mary Honeyball, MEP who has succeeded (from what I have read in this forum) in getting a bill to criminalise male punters of female sex workers (no other combination) throughout The EU, as part of gender equality to the second committee stage of The European Parliament, interestingly this madness includes an interesting new variation, to actually also criminalise male punters paying for sex with women outside The EU e.g. in Australia, N.Z. Thailand or Las Vegas, even if the service is fully legal in those jurisdictions!

These nutters are getting more insane by the new time!

I keep hearing about laws like this i.e. The bit about it being illegal for you to visit a brothel in another country. What IS the legal basis for this? Are you owned by your country of birth? What if you have dual nationality? What if an Australian citizen comes here on the same flight I'm returning on and they've used a prostitute too? Why am I a criminal and not them?

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It was our very own Laura Lee on there fighting our corner - tremendous job.

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It was our very own Laura Lee on there fighting our corner - tremendous job.

 

Yup. Not made easier by the constant interruptions.

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I watched, and was very impressed with Laura, particularly in the light of the arrogant, condescending manner of that Dorcas Erskine from the Poppy Project. If she is the best they can put up I suggest they find another spokesperson. All she could do was interrupt, talk over the others and generally come across as a very rude self opinionated person. (BTW she does look gorgeous!).

 

Laura's case would be helped enormously if a few guys were prepared to stick their heads above the parapet. I am not volunteering, and I don;'t expect that many will; all of which makes Laura's stand even more impressive.

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just watched it - that Dorcas Erskine is THE most arrogant person I've ever seen. Laura simply breathed in, aghast, ready to speak and she slapped her down saying "don't interrupt" - then she says "I'm not finished" when she's almost interrupted again, yet she was quite happy to speak over Laura and Belinda and I was quite glad when Laura held her hand up, mocking her mannerisms and told her not to interrupt her....I think Laura should have taken the opportunity to point out the opportunistic statistics that Dorcas was coming up with e.g. most prostitutes being 13 on entry, 78% being in care etc. This is clear nonsense, and from a self selecting survey and yet she's quite happy to project the results as being representative of prostitution as a whole. Given the number of women that enter prostitution in their 20s or 30s for the average to be 13 it would require huge numbers of toddlers to be entering prostitution. They've basically done the equivalent of going into a battered women's refuge and come up with statistics on the average marriage. Plus I keep wanting someone to point out that in this country prostitution is already illegal, with the client arrestable, in any situation where they're forced, threatened, underage, or in any way a genuine victim. The only persons arrestable using a new offence would be those who are engaging in consensual sex with other adults. 

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Sounds like there was a bit of drama. Where can I watch this?

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Sounds like there was a bit of drama. Where can I watch this?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03w7wd2

 

It's interesting that while Belinda Brooks-Gordon maintained that research showed that most prostitutes had not been trafficked, Dorcas Erskine insisted that research showed that they had.

 

Clearly a short item on a TV news programme is never going to be a suitable forum in which to examine and test these contradictory claims, but it would be really interesting to ask both Belinda and Dorcas to direct us to the sources of their respective research, so that those who wanted to could examine and assess them both.

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Just caught this on BBC iplayer.

 

Seemed a bit more balanced than the last time I saw Laura on TV, and I'm glad Laura and Belinda got to emphasise that its the trafficked women the law should go after, not the consenting adults. I laughed when Laura said rubbish, after Mary Honeyball made the erroneous claim that most prostitutes are trafficked. Its a sad affair that an MEP has to come on air and make clearly erroneous statements with nothing to back them up trying to further her misguided agenda. I think the presenter was right to tell them to stop quoting unverifiable statistics, and concentrate more on the issue of whether any government has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body.

 

However a lot of time was wasted with each side shouting over the other, the segment didn't have enough time as it is. I don't know what the source of Dorcas Erskine's statistics were, she seemed to be using the data she had out of context, citing underage prostitution as the reason punters should be criminalised. The only thing I could find on Eaves website was this.

http://i2.cmsfiles.com/eaves/2013/06/Capital-Exploits-June-2013.pdf-da8819.pdf

That survey seems mainly for on street prostitution, and doesn't really seem relevant to the matter at hand. As Julie Bindel is cited as one of the researchers that makes it seem even more dubious.

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I keep hearing about laws like this i.e. The bit about it being illegal for you to visit a brothel in another country. What IS the legal basis for this? Are you owned by your country of birth? What if you have dual nationality? What if an Australian citizen comes here on the same flight I'm returning on and they've used a prostitute too? Why am I a criminal and not them?

Please remember that the people behind anti sex worker and criminalise the client are very hateful and often mad individuals and they will put forward notions such as this whether they are enforceable or not! They would maintain that paid for consensual adult sex is 'paid for rape', they will lie through their collective holes on trafficking figures,they will try to conflate currently fully legal sexual activity with underage sex and they will fight as dirty as hell to get their way!

In the Irish Republic our anti sex work/worker parliamentary committee report actually realistically recommended that anyone downloading an escort related site e.g . Punternetshould be legally equated to a child molester downloading images of children being raped, tortured and abused!

BTW, the client criminalisation law in Norway does technically extend to Norwegian citizens abroad, Norway is of course non EU (and doing far better economically than any EU nation!), thankfully, the new Conservative side of the government have promised to repeal the law entirely!

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Thanks all for your kind comments.

 

It was super frustrating not to be allowed to come back and take the legs from under the anti's on the stats they were throwing around and I *almost* lost my temper 

with Dorcas, something I never, ever do in a debate. I had truly had enough of her by the end and barked at her to be quiet. 

 

The debate actually continued behind the scenes and became quite lively in the corridor LOL.  :cool:

 

It was very sneaky the way they trotted out their lies at the last minute so we couldn't answer, but lessons learned, they'll not get away with that again. 

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I just watched it.

 

How rich for the lady from Poppy to say "please do not interrupt me" at the beginning yet several times she herself interrupts and talks over others.

 

So the Swedish model doesn't criminalize sex workers, but it gives the police the right to kick down a sex worker's door if they believe she is with a client? How wonderful (not).

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Mary Honeyball got her facts wrong. She said that trafficking has been reduced by half in Sweden since the introduction of the law criminalizing men. It's not trafficking that has been said to have been reduced by half, it's street prostitution. And what she said about most sex workers have been trafficked is wrong too.

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I think the liberal community is lucky to have people like Dr Brooks-Gordon and Mrs Lee. These two and a few others seem to put a prodigious amount of work in to supporting sexy workers' rights despite it not being their main job. There would not be many punters prepared to put their faces on a tv broadcast., and those who are known to be punters such as Rooney, Brand and Dangerfield would probably have an eccentric world-view. Not that there's anything wrong with being eccentric of course - it's one of the traits that makes us islanders so endearing abroad.

 

But on the other side of the debate there seem to be a lot supporting the 'Swedish model' , MPs and trafficked or under-aged ex-harlots ( which is and should be illegal anyway ) who are willing to show their faces in support of their cause, and give up what is a lot of time for a tiny number of minutes on air.

 

So thanks to the two named at the top.

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It was our very own Laura Lee on there fighting our corner - tremendous job.

She was excellent wasnt she, despite that awful woman from Eaves virtually screaming at her!

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Laura well done on keeping calm, I'm not sure I could have done the same in that debate.

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A few things came to mind watching this newsnight piece.

 

The most important fact is the inside information seems to suggest a report next month will recommend following the Swedish model in criminalising the client. Indeed, in many parts of Europe this appears the direction of travel and we know many senior figures in political parties do back this move.

 

Clearly I would think the election in 2015 will stand in the way of any legislative move, unless it is forced through late in the parliamentary cycle, and that is something to watch out for.

 

The debate for any change in approach is clearly going to be framed from the trafficking aspect. If the debate is dominated from this aspect and if indeed an evidental basis supports the assertion criminalising demand reduces trafficking I would think it would recieve widespread political support. Indeed, my personal view is criminalising demand would carry support in the labour and liberal parties. I can see a Conservative swing in that direction from the political interest of equality. It is my belief ultimately we will get some form of this law, all parties want to address trafficking and all political parties have issues over gender equality, this issue, rightly or wrongly, would be a lightening rod for several such issues. I cannot see many politicians standing-up in this environment to argue against such a law.

 

So it is my belief sometime in 2016, perhaps a little later, we will follow the Swedish model in the UK in some form, perhaps watered down. I wouldn't be shocked to see it as a political pledge in any/all of the manifestos for the 2015 election.

 

Personally I see such a law as ultimately unworkable, but that really isn't the point. I actually think I would support in some form this law for the better of society in the long run, this may seem bizarre for me to say but I actually think we have to look around and realise the world around us is rapidly changing.

 

Personally I do worry how aspects of the internet unchecked are changing and sexualising the generation growing up. I just get the feeling younger women are being oversexualised, pressured and the lack of respect is a real problem and yes this is derived and propagated from the attitude of many younger men. I do think maybe many laws have to be changed, including in this area, to look to form a counter balance.

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Yes the internet and technology is changing the world but it isn't all for the worse. Websites with feedback systems help escorts to vet their clients and avoid potentially dangerous ones. And so do websites and systems (eg the Ugly Mug system) that share information on dangerous clients to sex workers. But these systems can only work effectively if both buying and selling of sex is legal.

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Hi YourSlave,

 

I guess I'm not taking a look in the practicality of the law, but a more general overview into how law shapes society.

 

For example, do we want a situation where ladies are shipped in on mass from Eastern Europe to work as escorts. There is no argument this has happened, although the figures are disputed. Equally I feel internet porn, unchecked pretty much for a decade or more, has pushed a more extreme view of sex.

 

I feel most people around here are mature, sensible and respectful. I do worry the generation growing up has a declining respect for women and women are equally affected by this in what is and isn't expected of them.

 

Ultimately education is the key, but also the law has a role to play. How do we create an equal and respectful society where women (and men) make free sexual choices in a way external of an oversexualising and declining in respect culture that seems to be evermore liberal?

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I think you can legislate to your heart's content but it won't change male attitudes on housing estates. All criminalising punters will do is push it underground and lead to more underage prostitution. To stop trafficking is simple tighten ill thought immigration laws.

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She was excellent wasnt she, despite that awful woman from Eaves virtually screaming at her!

 

 

Laura well done on keeping calm, I'm not sure I could have done the same in that debate.

 

Cheers, just a shame it wasn't enough. 

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