glasgowsteven

change to the law in scotland

95 posts in this topic

The only beneficiaries will be edinburgh sauna owners, and wgs.

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can't see it getting much further than it did in England. JS wanted that initially but knew there was too much opposition. It's just a few councillors in Glasgow and a couple of MSPs. Nothing to get your knickers in a twist over.

the snp like to make silly stupid laws so if it got to scottish parliament anything is poss

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the snp like to make silly stupid laws so if it got to scottish parliament anything is poss

usual way of doing things. Aim high. Whatever they ask for will get watered down so ask for everything....

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And when you've eradicated prostitution, King Canute, there's the small matter of the tide to attend to...

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From my blog because I can't be arsed typing it all out again (:eek:)

This week in the news I was aghast to see that Glasgow City Council are calling for the purchase of sex to be made illegal.

West Renfrewshire Labour MSP Trish Godman said she planned to propose changes to planned and existing legislation at Holyrood in the coming weeks.

She said: "We believe these amendments present a simple but devastatingly effective means of challenging demand for prostitution.

"Introducing these amendments as law would ensure that anyone involved in the purchase, marketing or facilitation of sexual services would be criminalised whether these acts took place on the street or indoors.

"Every shred of evidence indicates that prostitution is inherently harmful. It is incredible that something which so clearly breaches an individual's right to dignity, equality, respect and physical and mental well-being has gone unhindered for so long."

Err, what about my right to make a living and support my family ? What about my right to privacy when I do what I do behind closed doors between consenting adults ? Is it better for my "mental well-being" to fund my degree by claiming benefits ?

Turning back to Glasgow City Council for a moment, if you look at their website which is http://www.endprostitutionnow.org/, you come across this "job description";

"HELP WANTED: Women and girls do you want this job?

Are you tried of mindless, low skilled, low-paying jobs? Would you like a career with flexible hours? Working with people? Offering a professional service?

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From my blog because I can't be arsed typing it all out again (:eek:)

This week in the news I was aghast to see that Glasgow City Council are calling for the purchase of sex to be made illegal.

West Renfrewshire Labour MSP Trish Godman said she planned to propose changes to planned and existing legislation at Holyrood in the coming weeks.

She said: "We believe these amendments present a simple but devastatingly effective means of challenging demand for prostitution.

"Introducing these amendments as law would ensure that anyone involved in the purchase, marketing or facilitation of sexual services would be criminalised whether these acts took place on the street or indoors.

"Every shred of evidence indicates that prostitution is inherently harmful. It is incredible that something which so clearly breaches an individual's right to dignity, equality, respect and physical and mental well-being has gone unhindered for so long."

Err, what about my right to make a living and support my family ? What about my right to privacy when I do what I do behind closed doors between consenting adults ? Is it better for my "mental well-being" to fund my degree by claiming benefits ?

Turning back to Glasgow City Council for a moment, if you look at their website which is http://www.endprostitutionnow.org/, you come across this "job description";

"HELP WANTED: Women and girls do you want this job?

Are you tried of mindless, low skilled, low-paying jobs? Would you like a career with flexible hours? Working with people? Offering a professional service?

• No experience required! No qualifications needed. No minimum age requirement. On the job training provided.

• Special opportunities for poor women – exotic looking women - single mothers – women of colour

• Women and girls applying for this position will provide the following services:

• Being penetrated orally, anally and vaginally with penises, fingers, fists and objects, including but not limited to bottles, brushes, dildos, guns and/or animals;

•Being bound and gagged, tied with ropes and/or chains, burned with cigarettes, or hung from beams or trees."

How offensive. To me that deems us women of limited intellect who have little or no control over what happens to our bodies. I would suggest that I have more control over my body than the ladies who go out on a Friday night and get absolutely smashed, before going home and sleeping with some reprobate they found in a club.

No-one is going to deny that trafficking happens in Scotland, I know it happens. I also know that banning the purchase of sex will drive the industry underground and it will become nigh on impossible to reach those women who so desperately need our help. If we didn't have street workers in Glasgow and they were in legalised brothels then the violence towards them would deplete and the outreach services would have a far easier job in contacting them.

As an aside, how exactly are they going to make it an offence to purchase sex in Scotland when Edinburgh City Council make the money they do from the "Annual Entertainments Licence Fee" that they charge the local saunas ? Either they give up their lucrative income or they oppose the proposed legislative changes. Hmmm, it's a close call. :confused:

Once again they are under the retarded delusion that it is only women who are sex workers. You know if we can tell women that there is nothing wrong with paying for sex (which may encourage women to pay men for sex which will increase it) then there may be support for the sex industry as a whole.

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Where would the law stand for lassies just givin hand jobs??

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Where would the law stand for lassies just givin hand jobs??

The website has a comments / queries form, so why not write & ask them? They evidently belive that most WGs are forced victims. Being impelled to correspond with some who aren't will, at the least, get up their noses.

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as i put on another thread,i've emailed this site to suggest they target the religious industrys paedophile priests who abuse children instead of wanting to criminalise consenting adults.

perhaps we should all complain to the asa(advertising standards authority) about the ad as it associates prostitution with rape

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This is the stance of Bill Kelly (HM Inspector of Constabulary for Scotland) :-

We don't need more legislation - there are plenty of existing laws on everything from brothel-keeping to soliciting, kerb crawling and trafficking. Criminalisation is not the answer - either for those who buy or sell sex, and I wouldn't support the Swedish model. Instead, society has to recognise that there is a sex industry that needs to be regulated. Traditional thinking on sex work is outmoded, being focused almost entirely on street prostitution when, in fact, the transaction takes place in many different ways and is a huge commercial enterprise.

The escort agency and sauna sector alone was recently valued at a £0.5 billion, which is similar to the cinema industry. So the commerce involved is huge. You have to ask what the net gain of criminalising this industry would be, and how you would enforce it.

The public needs to make choices about where it wants police energies to be focused. Introducing an unworkable criminal statute would simply divert resources away from protecting the vulnerable, and from pursuing other more pressing demands.

Having led the Operation Pentameter investigation into sex trafficking in Scotland, I know that there is a serious problem around enforced prostitution. But you can't assume that everyone in the industry is there because of coercion, and moralising the argument by saying that no-one working in the industry could be doing so of their own free will detracts from efforts to protect the vulnerable.

Research into men who buy sex shows that in the sex industry, there are those who are oppressed and vulnerable and those who are not. In human rights terms, you have to be careful that you don't lose some rights to try and support others.

It's far better to simplify this debate by taking out the moralising and asking who's at most risk of harm, then targeting your efforts in helping them. By and large, the most vulnerable tend to be those working in street prostitution, who are often involved in drug addiction or oppressive relationships, and those trafficked into off-street brothels.

Within the past decade, there have been more than 100 murders of street-walkers, and if you take the view that protecting vulnerable women is a priority then you have to support anything that would provide them with more safety: so tolerance zones should be tried.

As for the argument that people simply shouldn't be allowed to trade in human misery, well, that's certainly relevant where trafficking is concerned, so that's where policing should be concentrated.

People are already being brought to justice and I don't think creating another offence would add any value, so no, I wouldn't support any move to criminalise men who purchase sex. As far as I am concerned, it is about protecting the most vulnerable from harm.

Bill Skelly is HM Inspector of Constabulary for Scotland

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A very sensible view, but how often in this debate do sensible views win out

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A very sensible view, but how often in this debate do sensible views win out

Never if the current bunch of charlatans in Government have their way, that's for sure.

Amongst the police, I suspect the vast majority of officers who have given the matter any serious thought would agree with Inspector Skelly.

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Never if the current bunch of charlatans in Government have their way, that's for sure.

Amongst the police, I suspect the vast majority of officers who have given the matter any serious thought would agree with Inspector Skelly.

How sensaible he sounds! More power to him!

When is he standing for PM?

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as i put on another thread,i've emailed this site to suggest they target the religious industrys paedophile priests who abuse children instead of wanting to criminalise consenting adults.

perhaps we should all complain to the asa(advertising standards authority) about the ad as it associates prostitution with rape

Have e-mailed an FoI to enquire into the cost of this propagada at taxpayers' expense. it is about as luridly exaggerated as the stories about the German army bayoneting babies as it rampaged across Belgium in 1914.

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Have e-mailed an FoI to enquire into the cost of this propagada at taxpayers' expense. it is about as luridly exaggerated as the stories about the German army bayoneting babies as it rampaged across Belgium in 1914.

well done!

i've complained to asa,will post when i hear their response

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well done!

i've complained to asa,will post when i hear their response

me too.

I wrote the following as my complaint

Glasgow city council is leading a campaign to "end prostitution" they lead with a poster which is comparing prostitution with rape, based on an alleged quote from a "scottish male". They also back up this allegation with a list of "8 myths" further inside the website whose address I have provided. One of the questions is "prostitution is a victimless crime" - their response to this is to list a series of OTHER crimes e.g. rape, assault etc which a prostitute may suffer. This is simply preposterous since they are already crimes and it does not change the fact that prostitution, the act of one adult paying another adult for sex is not a crime that generates a victim, and is certainly not rape. They also have a link to a "job description" where they say there is "no lower age limit" - there certainly is, and that is 18 under law and anyone paying a person under that age is already subject to harsh penalties. They also claim the job description includes being penetrated by bottles,brushes, animals or burnt with cigarettes. That is completely inaccurate and it is tantamount to an outright lie to say that prostitutes have to accept being penetrated by bottles or brushes and burnt by a cigarette as part of their job. They also say within the job description that "Payment will be delivered when client determines when and if services have been rendered to his satisfaction." - This is simply untrue, I have been a client of prostitutes for 14 years and even drug addicted street prostitutes ask for the money up front. Certainly any women in a parlour or working via an agency would only accept payment up front. This is an official political campaign by an official political organisation and as such is bound by your organisation. Please ensure their campaign is made using only reasonable arguments and not by slander and outright lie.

Plenty of other ammo in the website, but that should cover it

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the more complaints the asa receive the better

so lets get complaining!

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Grrrr!

Trying to lodge a complaint on ASA's website about this claptrap, but they have a 5000 character limit on the description, which doesn't allow anything like enough spleen-venting to cover every inaccuracy contained within this nasty, lie-filled load of tosh.

Can't complain using the old fashioned way as I don't want a response coming to my home address (for obvious reasons). Will they take an email without using their proper complaints form?

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Grrrr!

Trying to lodge a complaint on ASA's website about this claptrap, but they have a 5000 character limit on the description, which doesn't allow anything like enough spleen-venting to cover every inaccuracy contained within this nasty, lie-filled load of tosh.

Can't complain using the old fashioned way as I don't want a response coming to my home address (for obvious reasons). Will they take an email without using their proper complaints form?

Well you need to provide a name and address in any case, irrespective or whether it's via the web form or via normal mail. As far as the 5000 character limit goes, it's enough to get the message across. You don't have to list every single aspect you have an issue with - just focus on the link being made with prostitution and rape, and back is up with as much of the other stuff as you can.

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OK- have put in mine to the ASA.

This advert, by Glasgow City Council, relates to their campaign to criminalise the purchase of sex. It is crude propaganda of the worst sort. Whilst I have picked up on it via a website (which may or may not of itself fall within your remit) this offers advertising posters making the same points that surely do fall into your bailiwick. The objections to the material are numerous, but can be summarised as follows:

1. It equates consensual paid sex with rape. This is nonsense. By definition, rape is sex without consent. Consent for immediate payment, distasteful as some moralists may find it, is clearer-cut than the consent in many seductions and some marriages, in the way that payment for service is always clearer-cut than favour for favour.

2. It asserts under 'job description' that the job normally entails 'being penetrated orally, anally and vaginally ... with bottles, brushes, dildos, guns and/or animals…' Ditto, 'being bound and gagged, tied with ropes and/or chains, burned with cigarettes, or hung from beams or trees is a normal part of the job.' I have known many prostitutes over many years; I have yet to meet one who says that any of this has happened to her.

3. It says that the client pays whatever he feels like, after the sex. This is patently untrue. The normal system is that the client pays the agreed sum up front, usually within the first few minutes of meeting the woman and certainly before any sexual contact.

4. It says repeatedly that prostitution is 'not a choice.' This is patently untrue, as individually evidenced by Brook Magnanti (Belle de Jour)'s recent comments http://belledejour-uk.blogspot.com /; by extensive comment on the escorts' self help site http://www.saafe.info, by many prostitutes' comments on e.g. http://www.punternet.com and by recent high-quality academic studies including e.g.: http://www.sexworker.at/phpBB2/download.php?id=479, largely based on UK nationals and http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/londonmet/fms/MRSite/Research/iset/Migrant%20Workers%20in%20the%20UK%20Sex%20Industry%20Policy-Relevant%20Findings2.pdf which found, among migrant sex workers (in whom one might expect the most vulnerability to coercion), the vast majority (>90%) had made a positive choice to become prostitutes.

5. Finally, under 'Other Countries' it notes that New Zealand has decriminalised prostitution and brothel-keeping but is then dismissive, asserting that attacks on street prostitutes have increased. It completely fails to mention official NZ Govt analysis pointing to the success of the decriminalisation policy. http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy-and-consultation/legislation/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/plrc-report/report-of-the-prostitution-law-review-committee-on-the-operation-of-the-prostitution-reform-act-2003

I find such disingenuousness and disinformation to be outrageous, especially as it is at taxpayers' expense, and would urge you to take action.

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Right, also got mine off to the ASA too this morning!

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