Bowsprit

How will your punting change?

85 posts in this topic

Harriet Harman has today confirmed the intention, of this government, to pass legislation making it a criminal offense to pay for sex where the girl is trafficked, or in turn directly pays some of her earnings to a third party (the implication being commercial third party i.e. a pimp or brothel owner/manager).

The strong implication is that an offense will have been committed by the punter, irrespective of any checks or safeguards he may have taken, if it should subsequently come to light that the girl falls into one of these categories. This, to many, is no different to prosecuting the drug user but letting the pusher off the hook.

In the event this legislation becomes law how do each of you see it affecting the industry as a whole, and you personally?

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This, to many, is no different to prosecuting the drug user but letting the pusher off the hook.

Your point is a good one. But ask yourself these questions:

How many pushers are actually prosecuted?

How many pimps and madams are actually prosecuted?

So, how many punters do you think will be actually prosecuted?

The police will stick to the soft targets like drivers.

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I can't see it stopping me from punting completely, but might affect the volume and the types of places. For example, there is a long-established parlour that I've visited several times when in the area, but the problem is that it is on the High Street and any passing driver can see its a parlour. I've had some great times there, but would be wary of going back now. You never know what pressure group or whoever might be taking photos to name and shame.

I know this sounds paranoid but when you're after having fun, you don't need to have concerns enter your head. Hopefully at least the more discreet parlours will be unaffected.

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The long running parlours such as Debbies and Sandy's will be the true test of this law. If they are still open in 3, 6 or 9 months after the law comes into effect, we the punters will know the police have bigger fish to fry

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I can't answer the question, Bowsprit, but I can't see the legislation as anything other than politically motivated. They are not sending a message to those who pay for sex, but to the voters.

At best, some people might be scared off, but the price for that will be the vulnerable, and the price is high.

I've not heard a politician satisfactorily answer how 'burden of proof' will be met in a prosecution, but unfortunately, many people not involved in the industry will see this as the government 'doing something" so they will probably achieve their objective, irrespective of whether the legislation is passed or not.

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IMO this is all sound-bite stuff. If there was a real will to go for the evil bastards who traffick, and who exert pressure against families in the home countries, then there would be incentives (other than the moral ones) for clients to report all suspicions to a dedicated phone. The Police could then work steadily back up the chain until they had drawn together the information needed to clobber the ringleaders in whichever country, and cut off the heads of such operations.

Yes, that would mean that trafficked girls might go on working for months after their position had become known to the Police, but the only way to minimise this crime is to make the international ringleaders accept that the game is not worth the candle because they are going to be caught and punished. And the punishments for running such operations should be draconian.

Exactly the same approach should be used. I feel, against home-grown pimps and enforcers where the provision of sexual services is not completely voluntary.

The nonsense of the proposed legislation is that in addition to causing worries for legal workers who are under no coercion, it will put a barrier of fear up for clients considering reporting the abusers.

Edited by pabulum
adding domestic stuff

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IMO this is all sound-bite stuff. If there was a real will to go for the evil bastards who traffick, and who exert pressure against families in the home countries, then there would be incentives (other than the moral ones) for clients to report all suspicions to a dedicated phone. The Police could then work steadily back up the chain until they had drawn together the information needed to clobber the ringleaders in whichever country, and cut off the heads of such operations.

Yes, that would mean that trafficked girls might go on working for months after their position had become known to the Police, but the only way to minimise this crime is to make the international ringleaders accept that the game is not worth the candle because they are going to be caught and punished. And the punishments for running such operations should be draconian.

The nonsense of the proposed legislation is that in addition to causing worries for legal workers who are under no coercion, it will put a barrier of fear up for clients considering reporting the abusers.

Nicely put. I could almost forgive the "t" word...

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Harriet Harman has today confirmed the intention, of this government, to pass legislation making it a criminal offense to pay for sex where the girl is trafficked, or in turn directly pays some of her earnings to a third party (the implication being commercial third party i.e. a pimp or brothel owner/manager).

The strong implication is that an offense will have been committed by the punter, irrespective of any checks or safeguards he may have taken, if it should subsequently come to light that the girl falls into one of these categories. This, to many, is no different to prosecuting the drug user but letting the pusher off the hook.

In the event this legislation becomes law how do each of you see it affecting the industry as a whole, and you personally?

The changes will be quite radical. There is no doubt that the demand will indeed plummet, and most agencies, parlours and even genuine independents will go out of business. Most of the 'respectible' punters will stay away; more desperate types wil linger. This is what happened in Sweden. The industry will obviously not totally disappear, but will mostly go underground. The quality and the choice that currently exists will be a thing of the past. Let's face it, it is possible to see some of the most beautiful WG's in the world right now in London. That will no longer be possible, as the UK will not be an attractive destination for those girls...

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If what you say is true, the most significant aspect is that the paid sex industry will be driven underground.

Presumably this is exactly what the goverment are seeking to avoid?

I will say it for maybe the twentieth time on here - protsitution has been around as long as the human race, and no idealistic transient bunch of politicians will stop it. It will continue to exist long after we and they are all beyond caring. :eek:

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The trade will continue and it will continue underground probably.

Personally I think it will become so cut throat as every girl working will be on the same playing field which sounds ideal but in practice would be a nightmare.

Every girl will be competing in for the same client base. They will all have to be totally independant this includes friendly landlords, working with some mates, maids, drivers, possibly even booking agencies would be illegal.

MK for example would see probably 60 new independants for a start. This would mean every possible venue would have anything from 3 - 10 WG's in the vaccinity. The neighbours will love that.

The newspapers have already clamped down so advertising will become and issue and where does the third party rule stop ?

All those girls will be looking for an edge too. Call to the police - "Yeah tracy at 123 Smith Avenue is being controlled by her boyfriend and that's not her answering the phone". Thanks.

I'd imagine towns that didn't have a street scene will do very quickly. MK train station will soon be like Kings Cross was 10 years ago.

I'm very tempted to invite both our local Labour and Conservative MP's to House of Divine so they can see for themselves what the girls think and how it really works out. What good would it actually do though?

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Harriet Harman has today confirmed the intention, of this government, to pass legislation making it a criminal offense to pay for sex where the girl is trafficked, or in turn directly pays some of her earnings to a third party (the implication being commercial third party i.e. a pimp or brothel owner/manager).

The strong implication is that an offense will have been committed by the punter, irrespective of any checks or safeguards he may have taken, if it should subsequently come to light that the girl falls into one of these categories. This, to many, is no different to prosecuting the drug user but letting the pusher off the hook.

In the event this legislation becomes law how do each of you see it affecting the industry as a whole, and you personally?

I think all but the Independent Wg will suffer. Even there if the police decide to take action, some will suffer. If this legislation becomes law it will all come down to how individual police forces enforce it. I will continue to punt as normal whilst knowing a raid could happen at any time. F*** them is my motto.

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I can't answer the question, Bowsprit, but I can't see the legislation as anything other than politically motivated. They are not sending a message to those who pay for sex, but to the voters.

At best, some people might be scared off, but the price for that will be the vulnerable, and the price is high.

I've not heard a politician satisfactorily answer how 'burden of proof' will be met in a prosecution, but unfortunately, many people not involved in the industry will see this as the government 'doing something" so they will probably achieve their objective, irrespective of whether the legislation is passed or not.

I quite agree. One of the most sinister aspects of this insidious legislation is that just being prosecuted will result in a far greater penalty, for many punters, than being convicted. Being found innocent, or obtaining a dismissal through lack of evidence is unlikely to get you off the hook with wife, family, neighbours, colleagues and some employers.

It must surely be obvious to all that the primary intention of this proposed legislation is to form a stepping stone leading to the full criminalisation of prostitution. It has very little to do with trafficking and coercion of working girls. If it did have the government would not have withdrawn, but rather increased, funding for the Metropolitan Police 'anti-trafficking unit', expanded it to other cities, and would be examining more fully the activities of those 'managing prostitutes'.

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I quite agree. One of the most sinister aspects of this insidious legislation is that just being prosecuted will result in a far greater penalty, for many punters, than being convicted. Being found innocent, or obtaining a dismissal through lack of evidence is unlikely to get you off the hook with wife, family, neighbours, colleagues and some employers.

It must surely be obvious to all that the primary intention of this proposed legislation is to form a stepping stone leading to the full criminalisation of prostitution. It has very little to do with trafficking and coercion of working girls. If it did have the government would not have withdrawn, but rather increased, funding for the Metropolitan Police 'anti-trafficking unit', expanded it to other cities, and would be examining more fully the activities of those 'managing prostitutes'.

It's a good point, and given that legislation already exists to curb the activities of those 'living off immoral earnings', why isn't the law enforced a bit more. It's just more evangelical, vote-winning (they think), ill thought out legislation.

Don't any of these idiots ever think? I mean, look what a screw-up 24 hour drinking ended up being. Alcoholism out of control, Plod and A an E departments stretched to their limits in some towns and neighbourhoods. ID cards and multiple data loss fiascos. NHS computer system failing to get off the ground but still costing millions. Punitive taxes and now disproportionately punitive vehicle excise duties in the name of fighting global warming (and the future will reveal what total bollocks that is). Let's face it, it's a long and ugly list of disasters that these morons have inflicted upon us. This is another one, and we can only hope that the legislation gets knocked about so much in both Houses that sense will prevail somewhere.

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Its not about effective legislation, its about point scoring with the voters, even if it means criminalising a large section of the population

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Let's face it, it is possible to see some of the most beautiful WG's in the world right now in London. That will no longer be possible, as the UK will not be an attractive destination for those girls...

There'll be a lot more punters going abroad for their fun, I expect!

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The trade will continue and it will continue underground probably.

Personally I think it will become so cut throat as every girl working will be on the same playing field which sounds ideal but in practice would be a nightmare.

Every girl will be competing in for the same client base. They will all have to be totally independant this includes friendly landlords, working with some mates, maids, drivers, possibly even booking agencies would be illegal.

MK for example would see probably 60 new independants for a start. This would mean every possible venue would have anything from 3 - 10 WG's in the vaccinity. The neighbours will love that.

The newspapers have already clamped down so advertising will become and issue and where does the third party rule stop ?

All those girls will be looking for an edge too. Call to the police - "Yeah tracy at 123 Smith Avenue is being controlled by her boyfriend and that's not her answering the phone". Thanks.

I'd imagine towns that didn't have a street scene will do very quickly. MK train station will soon be like Kings Cross was 10 years ago.

I'm very tempted to invite both our local Labour and Conservative MP's to House of Divine so they can see for themselves what the girls think and how it really works out. What good would it actually do though?

Great post. This has been so obviously not thought through that it cannot possibly be a serious attempt at solving any perceived problems around prostitution and/or trafficking. And you really should invite the MPs down, they might even enjoy it. Make sure you get pictures :eek:

This is very much soundbite stuff as was more or less admitted by Jacqui Smith yesterday when interviewed. It is about scaring a few people off and making a splash with the prudes in society in the hope of deflecting some attention from the other problems they are in and maybe picking up a few votes.

It was interesting reading through the comments posted in response to the main news item on the BBC website yesterday and seeing the number of people hugely in favour of a crackdown without seeing that what the Government are proposing to date is such impractical nonsense. It is popularist politics very typical of much New Labour has done over the years and its highly likely that when this actually turns into yet another new set of legislation it will look nothing like it does in the proposals.

If they really want to do something they have laws in place already that they could enforce. They could not close down the Mat Police's specialist anti trafficking unit. Instead they announce this and it makes headlines on News at Ten (after John Sergeant quitting a TV dance competition)!

Today they are banging the drum on speeding and drink driving, tomorrow it will be something else. Meanwhile they do next to nothing about the real problems in the world. No wonder most people hold politicians in total contempt.

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it won't!

would a jury(if allowed)convict a punter for consenting indoor paid sex in a parlour or with an agency wg?doubt it, as they realise the law should be to stop forced prostitution. even then the police would need to arrest a drug dealer or trafficker first of all as has been pointed out in a guardian article

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it won't!

would a jury(if allowed)convict a punter for consenting indoor paid sex in a parlour or with an agency wg?doubt it, as they realise the law should be to stop forced prostitution. even then the police would need to arrest a drug dealer or trafficker first of all as has been pointed out in a guardian article

But will this offence be tried in Crown Court (with jury) or by Magistrates ?

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If there was a realistic chance of being arrested I wouldn't punt in the UK... which I suppose is the intended goal of the legislation.

I just can't see that banning consensual sexual activities between adults is going to make the world a better place.

We all hate trafficking or any sort of forced labour but this just seems like a moral crusade. I

Punting just seems to be harmless fun. Why shouldn't we be allowed to do it?

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Harriet Harman has today confirmed the intention, of this government, to pass legislation making it a criminal offense to pay for sex where the girl is trafficked, or in turn directly pays some of her earnings to a third party (the implication being commercial third party i.e. a pimp or brothel owner/manager).

The strong implication is that an offense will have been committed by the punter, irrespective of any checks or safeguards he may have taken, if it should subsequently come to light that the girl falls into one of these categories. This, to many, is no different to prosecuting the drug user but letting the pusher off the hook.

In the event this legislation becomes law how do each of you see it affecting the industry as a whole, and you personally?

Prostitution - Since Man found a woman willing to offer 'comfort' in exchange for services/protection/goods

Harriet Harman - 58 years on the planet

I would suggest that prostitution has a history like 'Ol man River', it just keeps rolling on.

It will just adapt and change to the prevailing circumstance, wherever 'law' legislates against nature, nature adapts.

Edited by ragout
wrong button

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And as another thought, anyone brave enough to start a Downing Street petition?

It worked for Road Tolls!

How about for Punternet trolls,

The servicing Dolls,

The Legislature's intervention,

And DivineMK's Suggestion.....

Milton Keynes station to become a model for 'Valet' parking,

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Harriet Harman has today confirmed the intention, of this government, to pass legislation making it a criminal offense to pay for sex where the girl is trafficked, or in turn directly pays some of her earnings to a third party (the implication being commercial third party i.e. a pimp or brothel owner/manager).

The strong implication is that an offense will have been committed by the punter, irrespective of any checks or safeguards he may have taken, if it should subsequently come to light that the girl falls into one of these categories. This, to many, is no different to prosecuting the drug user but letting the pusher off the hook.

In the event this legislation becomes law how do each of you see it affecting the industry as a whole, and you personally?

And what about nice brothel owners and madam?

Who may take a cut but not a massive one, who runs a nice friendly place for the girls to work, a safe one, with things like say christmas parties, work trips (ie piss ups) to Alton towers), helps them find education, acts as shoulder to cry on etc.

ie giving them a safe place to work off the streets with company and away from the bad guys?

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IMO this is all sound-bite stuff. If there was a real will to go for the evil bastards who traffick, and who exert pressure against families in the home countries, then there would be incentives (other than the moral ones) for clients to report all suspicions to a dedicated phone. The Police could then work steadily back up the chain until they had drawn together the information needed to clobber the ringleaders in whichever country, and cut off the heads of such operations.

Yes, that would mean that trafficked girls might go on working for months after their position had become known to the Police, but the only way to minimise this crime is to make the international ringleaders accept that the game is not worth the candle because they are going to be caught and punished. And the punishments for running such operations should be draconian.

Exactly the same approach should be used. I feel, against home-grown pimps and enforcers where the provision of sexual services is not completely voluntary.

The nonsense of the proposed legislation is that in addition to causing worries for legal workers who are under no coercion, it will put a barrier of fear up for clients considering reporting the abusers.

Aggree with the draconian puinishment for the scum giving the nice brothel owners a bad name...

Any abusers and bullies as bullies is what they are should be taken to redition interrogation sites where their victems can interrogate them to their hearts content before the die.

but support the nice places these daft laws ould have the german fkk club owners arrested which are the safest places to work.

Also police are not right to attack trafficers who are international and have government backing with currpt polititians and currpt police in their pocket security services assasination aquads are better

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Part of me wants to carry on regardless. But I guess that... because I gain a lot by living in a law abiding society (and moan a lot when others break the law)... I need to do my best to obey the law. Ultimately I don't think disagreeing with a law is sufficient cause to break it. I try to stay within the law as long as I do not feel the law itself is downright evil or unjust.

So what to do? I did think about hiring a solicitor to be present at all my sexual acts to make sure they are lawful. But then I thought "By paying the solicitor to be present I might be breaking the law". Brief fantasies then flitted through by mind of paying a comely young barrister to fulfill both roles... and probably that would be legal... but ruinously expensive.

So really no idea. I'm getting old. Maybe its time to pack in when the law changes, and just fit in some expensive final hurrah punts beforehand. I'll give the matter some more thought when/ if the changes become law.

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