bottom liner

The devil is in the detail

22 posts in this topic

Predictably the news has triggered an avalanche of comment on this forum mostly from punters scared witless that their wives will discover their private hobby, divorce them, and clean them out financially.

But there is no point really in speculating on outcomes until the law is enacted. It has to go through three readings, and be revised by the Lords. Even then we cannot interpret what will be meant by control or evidence of independance until we have some case law to guide us.

Then there is the issue of how different forces apply the law. As now it will differ in areas, and vary from time to time within areas depending probably on the orientation of the moral compass of the incumbent Chief Constable. Their resources are thin and this has a low pay-off in terms of collars felt against cost of operations.

I would like to think that they would target the types of places where trafficking might well be happening. The cheap, seedy, nasty places where the girls are foreign and appear to be not too happy to be there. Any punters caught up in raids on those dives will frankly have only themselves to blame.

However I am concerned that some Forces might be required to target the egregiously successful parlours such as Sandy's as a result of local political media pressure. Anyone caught up in something like that will just have to curse their luck.

The worst case scenario is that the parlours, and internet agency websites disappear, and there is a huge migration of Service Providers to the independant sector, each with their own discreet flat, their own website and such proofs of independance as case law deems adequate, tax returns and the like.

The irony is that none of the above will deter organised crime, or therefore trafficking, which will simply have to get more sophisticated to continue to operate. But I suspect that the real agenda of the Millie Tants in the Government and Poppy Project et al, is not to help the poor traffricked girls but to prevent men from exercising the option of being able to pay for sex.

As for me, I don't punt often, but will continue pro tem. I would never go to one of the low-rent establishments that might have one of these poor girls. So even after enactment, I would count myself very unlucky to get collared.

When we know what we're really dealing with in terms of what's on the statute book, and perhaps for a while after that when we find out how the Plod implements in our various areas, and how the case law surrounding this area develops, then we will be able to work out a strategy for safe punting.

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Possibly the most sensible post on the topic so far. So much else remains speculation.

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I tend to disagree.

I think the concern here is that the government will not put enough detail in this law - which makes this law so potent. Because of its vagueness, this law now allows you to be arrested first - and then you can sort out the details later with the lawyers. The thought of punters being "arrested" and put into a copper's van with a Tesco bag over your head, is what will ultimately kill off the industry - which is fuelled by quite a lot of people who do not have a criminal record, who has a good job, and who probably also has a family.

I am only guessing that the only remaining people who will then continue to finance the punting industry will be those who already have a criminal record, who doesn't care about his/her career, and someone who probably who does not have a stable family.

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Excuse my cynicism- but "New Labour" has consistently shown that it is more important to them that they should be seen to do something -rather than what they do is successful. This law will not stop trafficers or stop pimping but it will get more votes for labour amongst the Guardian readers, feminists and members of the chattering classes. It is designed to be first of all high profile and secondly to be effective.

There will be a few victims- a few seedy punters will get arrested and have no way of proving that they didn't know something rather than the court prove that they did- which is more difficult.

I read that this law is already operating in Scotland- do any of the punting community North of the border have any info for us?

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Watersportsinstructor is not a bit cynical. Every tiny thing New Labour has tried in the social field has amounted to a pile of bollocks.

This current nonsense will be (I predict) severely circumsised in Committee stage and will encounter the final 'chop' in their Lordships' House.

It's as plain as can be that the proposed legislation (except perhaps that around street workers/kerb crawlers) is as unworkable as is the current situation, as respects police resources. And that really drives one back to the real target here. Where are the Police resourses to target trafficking, sex slavery etc etc etc?

Uncle Pokey

Edited by Uncle Pokey
Gramatical infelicity

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I tend to disagree.

I think the concern here is that the government will not put enough detail in this law - which makes this law so potent. Because of its vagueness, this law now allows you to be arrested first - and then you can sort out the details later with the lawyers. The thought of punters being "arrested" and put into a copper's van with a Tesco bag over your head, is what will ultimately kill off the industry - which is fuelled by quite a lot of people who do not have a criminal record, who has a good job, and who probably also has a family.

I am only guessing that the only remaining people who will then continue to finance the punting industry will be those who already have a criminal record, who doesn't care about his/her career, and someone who probably who does not have a stable family.

I take your point but one hopes the vagueness at the moment will perforce be sharpened up by parliamentary draughtsmen at the behest of the police who will want something that they can convict upon.

What we all dread is being carted off in a Black Maria knowing that a letter with the Met's logo on it will be appearing shortly on the family doormat. However I am hazarding that the under-resourced police will carry out relatively few operations, as each would be expensive to do, and so target parlours where they are fairly certain of collars for trafficking i.e. the cheap and nasty end of the market.

Speaking selfishly as I don't frequent those places and generally don't punt that often, I am calculating that the probability of me getting the doormat thunderbolt is slim. And if it results in parlours getting closed which were enslaving women all the better. The only downside is that at least part of the customer segment patronising those places will migrate to the street girls if they want to punt but can't afford themselves the luxury of the independant SP's.

Just as the smart SP's will set up as ultra discreet independants, so will the smart punters work out strategies to meet them safely. The few guys who are actually going to be arrested will be so because they were not smart enough to avoid being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Thank you Mr Polo

Travel has clearly broadened your mind

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Bottom Liner is spot on and I'd hazard at guess speaks with some authority or working knowledge of the law.

Ironically the Met Police Human Traffick Team is being disbanded just as this proposed law is put forward.

It's proposal is so open that defence QC's are probably wetting themselves to rip it to shreads in open court. Hopefully The House of Lords will see this and vote against it, Ms Smith is not their best friend anyway.

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Bottom Liner is spot on and I'd hazard at guess speaks with some authority or working knowledge of the law.

Ironically the Met Police Human Traffick Team is being disbanded just as this proposed law is put forward.

It's proposal is so open that defence QC's are probably wetting themselves to rip it to shreads in open court. Hopefully The House of Lords will see this and vote against it, Ms Smith is not their best friend anyway.

Concur.

And does this also means that the HOD business model can prevail ?

probably subcontracting with some added paperwork as you mentioned in another thread.

btw: where is Madame Becky with a good view of this ?

Would be nice to see OK establishments survive, but like BL, I dont mind if the dodgy ones get squeezed out.

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Excuse my cynicism- but "New Labour" has consistently shown that it is more important to them that they should be seen to do something -rather than what they do is successful. This law will not stop trafficers or stop pimping but it will get more votes for labour amongst the Guardian readers, feminists and members of the chattering classes. It is designed to be first of all high profile and secondly to be effective.

There will be a few victims- a few seedy punters will get arrested and have no way of proving that they didn't know something rather than the court prove that they did- which is more difficult.

I read that this law is already operating in Scotland- do any of the punting community North of the border have any info for us?

The change in law in Scotland was on kerb crawling. It is reported that the women in Edinburgh there are twice as many assults now on the street prostitutes.

In Aberdeen where there was a safe area on the docks for the women to work. This was closed and now the women are a nuisance in the middle of the town soliciting men as they leave clubs.

It has been suggested prostitution has risen in Aberdeen.

Now if this legislation goes like FOX HUNTING, then we can see a greater support for prostitution as new members join this elite club.

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I see only independents, but this law is so vague at present even independents could be targetted! I hope it will be stopped or amended in the Lords. Even a slight changing of wording ('and' 'or') could be enough to de-fang it.

I would worry about punting should this become law, but I will not stop! My mind is clear, I know the people I have seen have not been 'controlled for gain'. Make no mistake the individuals who are responsible for these proposals are in it for their own agendas, not because there is public support for it. The so-called (overstated) facts they present are nonsense, pure lies. All or at least most politicians lie - Remember Iraq!!

My biggest concerns are that I wouldn't be able to view girls websites, access PunterNet, or dare I say it, the site that cannot be mentioned! Because I know I wouldn't want to book someone who I only had a text description of!

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Bottom Liner is quite right there is no point in speculating until the new law has been tested. Government law draughters are notorious for leaving

legislation wide open for attack by smart lawyers.IMHO the proposed legislation is so 'woolly' that it will take one or more test cases perhaps going as far as the Appeal Court and the European Law of Human Rights before a clear picture emerges of any possible 'get out of jail ' defences. I hope that there are enough good people from the punting community with deep pockets

principled enough to take a stand on our behalf. As Divine MK and others have stated fear is the greatest weapon in the governments armoury.

Some posters have argued that the Lords could defeat the proposed legislation. There does not appear to be any great outpouring of public opinion in favour of rejecting the proposed law and in any event if the government is that determined it can use the Parliament Act to force through the legislation

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There does not appear to be any great outpouring of public opinion in favour of rejecting the proposed law and in any event if the government is that determined it can use the Parliament Act to force through the legislation

Not sure that's true. The online polls I've seen seem to be running at about 70% against. And reader comments on the numerous Guardian and other newspaper pieces about it look more like 80-90% against.

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I think 'trafficking' is an urban myth as I don't know of any successful prosecutions. In my opinion it is just an emotive term coined by the government to justify sending home mainly Eastern European women without having to go through lenghty immigration court procedures.

The sex industry seems to be the only industry where this govermment is actively discriminating in favour of local workers over foreign workers.

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My biggest concerns are that I wouldn't be able to view girls websites, access PunterNet, or dare I say it, the site that cannot be mentioned!

Does anyone really believe it will come to that? I don't believe we will notice much change in the way Agencies, Indies and Pn operate. Ok, I accept that Agencies and Indies will have to fine tune some of thier pics and descriptions and have the i's dotted and t's crossed where necessary, and as for PN, are you suggesting that we will be arrested for talking about sex now?!:eek:

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Concur.

And does this also means that the HOD business model can prevail ?

probably subcontracting with some added paperwork as you mentioned in another thread.

btw: where is Madame Becky with a good view of this ?

Would be nice to see OK establishments survive, but like BL, I dont mind if the dodgy ones get squeezed out.

Too early to say to be honest. We're taking legal advice but it's all pie in the sky until it actually becomes law.

I think it's workable, if not I'll have to return to Podium dancing.

Mr D.

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Too early to say to be honest. We're taking legal advice but it's all pie in the sky until it actually becomes law.

I think it's workable, if not I'll have to return to Podium dancing.

Mr D.

Aye. Wait and See first.

And I might come and watch you dancing.

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Too early to say to be honest. We're taking legal advice but it's all pie in the sky until it actually becomes law.

I think it's workable, if not I'll have to return to Podium dancing.

Mr D.

Still got them yellow satin shorts and Blundstone boots then? Job's a good 'un! :eek:

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I would like to think that they would target the types of places where trafficking might well be happening. The cheap, seedy, nasty places where the girls are foreign and appear to be not too happy to be there.

They'll target the places where the girls are foreign, regardless of whether they seem happy to be there. So the people who have the least get to lose some more of what they have. It makes us sound less extremist to say this is a good thing. But it's not.

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a huge migration of Service Providers to the independant sector, each with their own discreet flat

Might such a trend be aided by the current state of the housing market? Huge numbers of one and two bedroom flats have been built over the last few years. With the collapse of the buy-to-let market whole blocks of apartments could end up as de facto brothels?

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It all depends what you mean by " control for gain" doesn't it.

My thought is to compare with Taxi firms; many drivers are independent self employed guys, but for marketing & organisation they agree to be "controlled" by the booking & dispatching organisations that are Taxi firms, but, unless thay have accepted financial help with the car, they are free to change anytime they wish. There are of course dodgy firms on the criminal fringe who play hard-ball.

The same goes for Escort agencies. There are those that "control" in the sense of organising, there are those that go a bit further & establish a financial or other pressure that makes it difficult for a girl to refuse a booking or even move on, and there are those that seem to have a 2 tier list (some girls have a genuine agency relationship and others seem more "controlled").

There is a gold mine here for m'learned friends.

Personally I doubt that many of the trafficked & pimped girls will feel much benefit - the organisers will set go further underground and the clients will be that much more careful.

I am pretty certain that our brave & bold lads in blue (or rather their controllers) will head for the easy targets to keep the target numbers up, betting that few of the guys they sting will want to argue the toss in the full glare of the media (or be able to afford to)

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In Aberdeen where there was a safe area on the docks for the women to work. This was closed and now the women are a nuisance in the middle of the town soliciting men as they leave clubs.

It has been suggested prostitution has risen in Aberdeen.

It wasn't 100% safe - if I remember rightly last year - could have been the year before- a streetgirl from out of town was picked up from the harbour and murdered.

You are correct in the fact that the girls have moved into town and solicit men leaving the clubs far more than before. In the same breath men are soliciting females out and about, who are not WG's and causing distress (one of my daughters being one of them).

Prostitution has risen massively in Aberdeen over the years , not only the number of streetgirls (which could coincide with an increase in the use of hard drugs) but also girls coming in from other areas either setting up or touring - the increase in people in the oil industry, coupled with high wages and lack of business found in other areas has probably been a big driving factor to girls working in the area. A few years ago there were a couple of dozen girls, now you find 50+ advertising on the internet and numerous adds in the sport on a regular basis.

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