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lancelot

Buying Sex Now Illegal In N.ireland

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It's not illegal yet, it's a proposal they were voting for and it still has a few more steps to go through before it does become law.

 

While the legislation still has to pass further assembly stages, the significant majority support within the devolved administration means it is essentially now destined to become law.

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and thats the British side! I fee terrible for the escorts and punters in Northern Ireland. Strawberry is of course correct but with such a massive majority vote its not looking like happy days. 

Edited by Chloe Kisses

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They are religious fanatics in those parts.

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A bad day indeed for both escorts and their clients. I wonder if the ferries across the Irish Sea will notice any increase in bookings once the proposed law is enacted.

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Mission creep, mark my words. It'll be coming to a UK Parliament debating floor before long. Utterly backwards and blinkered approach to safeguarding trafficked women to just blanket-target the 99% of legitimate SPs and punters. Fucking politicians. My only hope is that, being Norn Iron this was driven more by Christian dogma than anything.. and perhaps a more rational debate may be heard in the UK. I don't hold out much hope though.

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I see many people commenting but not speaking out when it's needed. Many politicians do not get to speak to sex workers or their clients, they can only then base their vote on the very skewed documents provided and or go along with the party line. Sure some workers and clients do say something, and there's lots of work done by various organisations but my feeling is not wanting or not able to say anything means these laws do get in, then comes the shrugs and moans.

Edited by Strawberry
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Should the law be passed...the best anyone could hope for is the politicains who voted for it ...are among the first clients to be arrested and charged for it. But, knowing how the police and politcains work together , there will a cover ups.

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France and Scotland don't want the Swedish model, but Northern Ireland does. I wonder if it could be anything to do with the fact NI population is about 95% Catholic?

 

It's no secret people who are highly religious want sexwork illegal, and last year we saw Rhoda Grant recruit churches into supporting her- she arranged for an anti-sexwork TV documentary to be shown at churches to church-goers who otherwise knew nothing about the sex trade and got hundreds of ignorant chruch-goers to respond to her public consultation. So it seemed like everyone who visited church knew about RG's proposed law, but when I asked escorts I visited most of them had no idea there was a proposal to criminalise sexwork or even heard of Rhoda Grant. And before that  the now-retired Trish Godman tried to sneak in an amendment to criminalise sexwork onto another bill which wasn't even about sexwork in the hope noone would notice.

 

I get the impression MSPs who want sexwork illegal in Scotland are struggling- Scotland isn't as religious as NI or as feminist as Sweden, so that's why we are seeing dirty tactics from MSPs like the above.

 

 

Should the law be passed...the best anyone could hope for is the politicains who voted for it ...are among the first clients to be arrested and charged for it. But, knowing how the police and politcains work together , there will a cover ups.

 

I don't know how NI intends to enforce and police this law. Various news sources have claimed NI police don't have the powers to monitor phone calls, and since 1999 Sweden has only convicted 2 people in court of paying for sex after they (foolishly) admitted to it- in every other court case the sexworkers have refused to testify against the client making a conviction impossible.

 

I wonder how similar the situation will be compared to Sweden (all the things I mention below happen in Sweden).

 

- Will sexworkers in NI be branded unfit mothers and have their children taken off them?

 

- Will landlords start evicting sexworkers now it is a crime?

 

- Will the Gardai make hoax calls to escorts to trick them into revealing their location then hang around outside for hours listening for evidence and waiting for clients?

 

- Will condoms be used as evidence?

 

- Will the Gardai secretly record escorts having sex to use as evidence?

 

- If an escort goes to the police to report domestic violence will they ignore her report and be more interested in what she does for money (remember Petite Jasmine)?

 

- How much police money and resources will this cost? How much court money and resources will be wasted trialling all these men only for the case to be thrown out?

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To summarise if you want a law criminalising sexwork to pass you need at least one of two things- a highly fanatical religious population, or a highly fanatical anti-sex feminist population (the more radical the better).

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I wonder if it will be like the ban on mobile phones while driving. We can hope the legislation is on the books but not really implemented.

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France and Scotland don't want the Swedish model, but Northern Ireland does. I wonder if it could be anything to do with the fact NI population is about 95% Catholic?

 

...................

Just one minor misconception here. The Roman Catholic population of NI is still a bit less than 50%!.....

 

This prospective legislation is clearly supported by both sides of the divide.

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My mistake. I got mixed up with Malta.

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I see one MP over there reckons the police will be able to enforce this by scrutinising credit card records. FFS what planet is he on?

Same MP offers the alternative of catching punters in the act. You really, really wouldn't believe it!

Uncle Pokey

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So that you don't have to, the MLA Alban Maginness ( a barrister no less ) loses his grip on the plot here. It's about 5/6ths the way in at 01:15.

 

The police will apply "all the resources they've got". The busy police officers will be thinking he's a plank.

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So that you don't have to, the MLA Alban Maginness ( a barrister no less ) loses his grip on the plot here. It's about 5/6ths the way in at 01:15.

 

The police will apply "all the resources they've got". The busy police officers will be thinking he's a plank.

 

I guess the NI Gardai must have plenty of free police resources if they have hours to spend each night lurking outside escorts' homes just like Swedish cops do (see below videos). Most likely they will have to make the resources to enforcing this by allocating less time to what they are doing at the moment.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6O4xzzTqSU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OofRzb5gDBE

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My thoughts are that there will be a few published stings initially to put panic into people. But the reality is that they cannot enforce it, they simply do not have the manpower (I know this from inside sources ahem)

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..................

 

It's no secret people who are highly religious want sexwork illegal, and last year we saw Rhoda Grant recruit churches into supporting her- she arranged for an anti-sexwork TV documentary to be shown at churches to church-goers who otherwise knew nothing about the sex trade and got hundreds of ignorant chruch-goers to respond to her public consultation. So it seemed like everyone who visited church knew about RG's proposed law, but when I asked escorts I visited most of them had no idea there was a proposal to criminalise sexwork or even heard of Rhoda Grant. And before that  the now-retired Trish Godman tried to sneak in an amendment to criminalise sexwork onto another bill which wasn't even about sexwork in the hope noone would notice.

 

I get the impression MSPs who want sexwork illegal in Scotland are struggling- Scotland isn't as religious as NI or as feminist as Sweden, so that's why we are seeing dirty tactics from MSPs like the above.

 

 

.................................

 

For most members of the public, they imo have little to no concern about the indoor sex industry.  Many of the concerns that do exist about the indoor industry are often founded on either myths or the fact that other criminals may seek to target sexworkers because of their current vulnerable status.

 

IMO a well run brothel would be far less trouble than living near many a pub or takeaway.  There is a squeamishness amongst a certain segment of the public whenever sex is on the agenda, look at any number of cases where a strip club or swingers club applies for a license.  There are always assertions that it will attract undesirable types who will somehow (never explained) suddenly then be turning their attentions to any random child or woman anywhere vaguely near the premises. It is utter BS.  As for indies working from home I doubt that many neighbours would even be aware what goes on, or if they are, the impact would be no different to anyone else running a self-employed business from home.

 

The area that the antis always focus on to highlight their cause, and one which does tap into genuine public concerns is the streetscene.  As we all know, this area of activity is already criminalised for both parties, and anyone indulging in it is imo a fool.  A significant number of those working in this segment of the industry are living very chaotic lives and do cause problems to those living in the areas where they are operating.  Again perception plays a part, but the problems are nevertheless real imo.  The solution to this problem is not more legislation.  As Pia observes above, resources will not stretch to widespread enforcement of new laws, in fact the street scene is still able to operate freely in many areas with just the occasional token clampdown.  As with phone hacking by the NOTW, it is a matter of getting the police to enforce laws that already exist and not creating fresh legislation to create new problems and costs where few existed previously.

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I guess all will be Ok in N Ireland as you are paying for the ladies time as a companion and anything else is ok between consenting adults and is not paid for!

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For most members of the public, they imo have little to no concern about the indoor sex industry.

 

IMO a well run brothel would be far less trouble than living near many a pub or takeaway.

 

 

Outdoor sexwork has been illegal in Scotland since 2007, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the churchy people who responded to the RG consultation weren't already aware of that. RG certainly did not make it clear what the existing laws on sexwork were.

 

Good point about brothels being less trouble than pubs/takeaways. IMO punters going in and out of a brothel just wouldn't want to create a disturbance and attract attention to themselves.

 

 

I guess all will be Ok in N Ireland as you are paying for the ladies time as a companion and anything else is ok between consenting adults and is not paid for!

 

In theory that's all very well but it's not exactly clear if it really will all be ok in practice. I remember RG saying in response to this something like "it's very clear what punters are really paying for", but I don't know if that's good enough for the courts, especially if client and sexworker are both denying money was exchanged for sex. This is also why in some countries where sexwork is illegal condoms are used as evidence and the cops secretly film the client and worker having sex in an attempt to prove the money really was for sex and not just companionship.

 

 

My thoughts are that there will be a few published stings initially to put panic into people. But the reality is that they cannot enforce it, they simply do not have the manpower (I know this from inside sources ahem)

 

I agree. They'll pull off a few stings initally and make them high-profile and make sure certain reporters are lapping them up (and for years to come the antis will be using these news articles as "proof" how effective the law really is), then things will go quiet, the police won't bother doing much apart from a PR sting here and there, most punters will punt as usual, sexworkers will continue selling services (with the added fear of raids or being branded as unfit mothers by social services among other new problems) and the antis will be patting themselves on the back thinking about all the "prostituted women" that have been saved because of the new law.

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And another not-so-balanced article from the BBC here:

 

"Paying for sex 'should be illegal', campaigners say"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29720915

 

And as usual for practically every single anti-article, there is a stock picture of a streetwalker.

 

 

It highlights Sweden, where a similar change in the law in 1998 has reportedly seen a reduction in the number of street prostitution cases

 

Of course that couldn't possibly be anything to do with the fact back then few people had the internet and now almost everyone has the internet. And even if the law is directly responsible for reducing streetwalkers that may just mean they have moved indoors out of sight. After 15 years and that's the best Sweden is able to come up with?

 

 

Fiona Bruce MP, who sits on a cross-party group dedicated to the issue, described existing laws as "ineffective", and said in Sweden, legislation had "proved easier to enforce".

There have been "approximately 3,000 convictions" in the country, she added.

 

That's funny, a 2012 report by the UN HIV and the Law commission claims there were only 2 court convictions from the implementation of the law until 2012 (and none have been sent to prison). Perhaps by "convictions" Fiona Bruce means the on-the-spot (generally low) fines handed out?

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And another not-so-balanced article from the BBC here:

 

"Paying for sex 'should be illegal', campaigners say"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29720915

 

And as usual for practically every single anti-article, there is a stock picture of a streetwalker.

 

 

Of course that couldn't possibly be anything to do with the fact back then few people had the internet and now almost everyone has the internet. And even if the law is directly responsible for reducing streetwalkers that may just mean they have moved indoors out of sight. After 15 years and that's the best Sweden is able to come up with?

 

 

That's funny, a 2012 report by the UN HIV and the Law commission claims there were only 2 court convictions from the implementation of the law until 2012 (and none have been sent to prison). Perhaps by "convictions" Fiona Bruce means the on-the-spot (generally low) fines handed out?

My understanding is that even with an on the spot fine, the UK authorities have the right to put an offender on the sex offenders register.

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My understanding is that even with an on the spot fine, the UK authorities have the right to put an offender on the sex offenders register.

As far as I understood this wasn't going to be a crime that would qualify you to be included on the SO register, can you find me a link to something that says this?

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