SlickWilly

Rep Of Ireland Criminalise The Punter Bill To Be Published

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The Irish Government at the instigation of Frances Fitzgerald, our Minister for the interior has approved the criminalization of the client/ sex worker hating in a forthcoming bill to be published this week!

Apparently, this insane bill will contain over 70 sections, so it will be a constitutional minefield for them!

It will still have to go through several stages before it puts us back as the North Korea of sex once again, but all that's up for debate is how severe it will be and when it will come into force and indeed how it will be policed in practice!

Our lovely Minister has also rejected lowering the age of consent to 16 from the current 17 - absurd from the point of view of peer to peer relationships, young lads have been imprisoned over it,here, in a 17 yr old boy with a 16 yr old girlfriend scenario!

 

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/paying-for-sex-to-be-made-illegal-under-new-laws-30771617.html

 

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The bones of the Bill were published today with the most relevant bits being in Pages 19-20! It has been lumped under a Bill which includes trafficking and child abuse, which is of itself not good, because those are actual crimes that should be taken extremely seriously!

 

The relevant wording is -

 

The following section is inserted after section 5 of the Act of 1993
“Offence of purchasing sexual services
5A(1) For the purposes of this head, the term “sexual service” shall have the same meaning as the term “sexual activity.”
(2) Where, in the context of prostitution, any person who purchases a sexual service from another person, in any place, he or she shall be guilty of an offence.
(3) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to:
(a) a class E fine, in the case of a first conviction, or
(B) a class D fine, in the case of a second or subsequent conviction.
(4) Any person who attempts to purchase a sexual service from another person, in any place, he or she shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a class E fine.”

 

There is an immediate issue what happens if payment for sexual services is made to somebody who is not a prostitute (as far as we know?) e.g. offering 50P to Lord Morrow for a hand job, a fiver to Mad Hattie for some OWO or a tenner each to Sarah Benson and Denise Charlton for a full on 2 girl or indeed 20 to our Minister for Justice for some S and M?

 

There appears to be nothing about decriminalising sex work further!

And also having sex with a person trafficked for that purpose is still not an offence if the punter claims he/she doesn't know the person was trafficked!

 

What was published today (much of which all of us would support!) -

 

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/General%20Scheme%20of%20the%20Criminal%20Law%20%28Sexual%20Offences%20Bill%29%202014.pdf/Files/General%20Scheme%20of%20the%20Criminal%20Law%20%28Sexual%20Offences%20Bill%29%2

 

 

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There is still a bit to go before this becomes law and the Government might still be gone before it does! :D

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5A(1) For the purposes of this head, the term “sexual service” shall have the same meaning as the term “sexual activity.”

(2) Where, in the context of prostitution, any person who purchases a sexual service from another person, in any place, he or she shall be guilty of an offence.

. . .

There appears to be nothing about decriminalising sex work further!

. . .

And also having sex with a person trafficked for that purpose is still not an offence if the punter claims he/she doesn't know the person was trafficked!

 

This if true is extreme control freakery - presumably an Irish gentleman or lady paying for sex in New Zealand, Turkey or even on a Dreamliner is committing an offence back in their home country then.

And no decriminalisation of any activities of current indoor sex worker who make up the majority of the sex work community.

 

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5A(1) For the purposes of this head, the term “sexual service” shall have the same meaning as the term “sexual activity.”

(2) Where, in the context of prostitution, any person who purchases a sexual service from another person, in any place, he or she shall be guilty of an offence.

. . .

There appears to be nothing about decriminalising sex work further!

. . .

And also having sex with a person trafficked for that purpose is still not an offence if the punter claims he/she doesn't know the person was trafficked!

 

This if true is extreme control freakery - presumably an Irish gentleman or lady paying for sex in New Zealand, Turkey or even on a Dreamliner is committing an offence back in their home country then.

And no decriminalisation of any activities of current indoor sex worker who make up the majority of the sex work community.

 

 

 

I am sure this already happened in either Sweden or Norway as part of the law but cannot remember if it went through. 

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I am sure this already happened in either Sweden or Norway as part of the law but cannot remember if it went through. 

Pia AFAIK. it's part of the Norwegian version and not The Swedish one! But I think in the Irish case the extra territorial powers (most probably highly unconstitutional with a crime carrying a low level fine and of course unenforceable), it's there to make no distinction between street based and private encounters rather than make the minster for the Interior, effectively the Minister for the interior for the whole world!

Also Section 5 still does not get rid of the constitutional issue they will encounter when drafting the law as while it makes purchasing sexual services illegal, it is still legal to sell them and that does not constitutionally compute!

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I guess, if this law is passed, our friends in Ireland will need to start their field reports with "This happened to a friend of a friend..." .

 

Also if the bit about 'any place' (any person who purchases a sexual service from another person, in any place, he or she shall be guilty of an offence.)goes into the bill then we will have Garda officers hanging around in Bangkok and Philippines bars to gather evidence!

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From the BBC News web site at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-30404275:

 

The Northern Ireland Assembly has passed the Human Trafficking and Exploitation Bill, which includes a clause criminalising payment for sex.

 

The private member's bill was brought before the house by the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) peer Lord Morrow and passed its final stage on Tuesday.

The bill will be submitted to the Queen for Royal Assent, before becoming law.

 

And from http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/northern-ireland-30398087:

 

Justice Minister David Ford described the bill as "ground-breaking" and said it would make "a material difference in the lives of vulnerable people".

 

But while the house remained united on the main principles of the bill, Mr Ford said he still had misgivings around criminalising paying for sexual services, the debate around which he said had "diverted the focus away from some of the other important measures and into the moral issues surrounding the purchase of sex".

 

"I remain disappointed the research I commissioned from Queens University was ignored and indeed at times derided," he said.

 

The minister's Alliance Party colleague, Stewart Dickson, said the bill had "evolved considerably since its introduction" which had "for the most part brought significant improvement".

 

He said it was "a deep source of regret", however, that clause 15, criminalising paying for sexual services, was included in the bill as it carried "possible dangers for those who have been trafficked or those working in the sex industry who have not been trafficked".

 

Ulster Unionist Tom Elliott agreed that clause 15 had caused "a great deal of division" but said "I think, in the end, the decision has been right".

 

Lord Morrow's party colleague Jim Wells said he believed that "in a hundred years time, everyone will still know the name of Lord Morrow of Clogher Valley" as the originator of "one of the most important pieces of law this Assembly will pass in this mandate".

 

"I believe Lord Morrow's bill will stand the test of time," he said.

 

Green Party MLA Steven Agnew said he remained concerned that the clause involving prostitution could be "counterproductive in relation to the aims of the bill".

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That Jim Wells is one of the most disgusting beings with a pulse in NI. A proven fabricator of evidence during the committee hearings stage of this bill. And that fabrication was even backed up by his own researcher. It may well be that in 100 years time academics establish a set of values that defines the human race e.g. honesty, integrity, proportionate scepticism, love, compassion, forward-thinking etc and uses him as an example of someone who didn't meet the requirement.

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From the BBC News web site at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-30404275:

 

The Northern Ireland Assembly has passed the Human Trafficking and Exploitation Bill, which includes a clause criminalising payment for sex.

 

The private member's bill was brought before the house by the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) peer Lord Morrow and passed its final stage on Tuesday.

The bill will be submitted to the Queen for Royal Assent, before becoming law.

 

And from http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/northern-ireland-30398087:

 

Justice Minister David Ford described the bill as "ground-breaking" and said it would make "a material difference in the lives of vulnerable people".

 

But while the house remained united on the main principles of the bill, Mr Ford said he still had misgivings around criminalising paying for sexual services, the debate around which he said had "diverted the focus away from some of the other important measures and into the moral issues surrounding the purchase of sex".

 

"I remain disappointed the research I commissioned from Queens University was ignored and indeed at times derided," he said.

 

The minister's Alliance Party colleague, Stewart Dickson, said the bill had "evolved considerably since its introduction" which had "for the most part brought significant improvement".

 

He said it was "a deep source of regret", however, that clause 15, criminalising paying for sexual services, was included in the bill as it carried "possible dangers for those who have been trafficked or those working in the sex industry who have not been trafficked".

 

Ulster Unionist Tom Elliott agreed that clause 15 had caused "a great deal of division" but said "I think, in the end, the decision has been right".

 

Lord Morrow's party colleague Jim Wells said he believed that "in a hundred years time, everyone will still know the name of Lord Morrow of Clogher Valley" as the originator of "one of the most important pieces of law this Assembly will pass in this mandate".

 

"I believe Lord Morrow's bill will stand the test of time," he said.

 

Green Party MLA Steven Agnew said he remained concerned that the clause involving prostitution could be "counterproductive in relation to the aims of the bill".

 

Apologies - my message above should have been posted to the "Buying Sex Now Illegal In N.ireland" topic. Didn't mean to confuse things by derailing the Republic of Ireland topic.

 

 

That Jim Wells is one of the most disgusting beings with a pulse in NI. A proven fabricator of evidence during the committee hearings stage of this bill. And that fabrication was even backed up by his own researcher. It may well be that in 100 years time academics establish a set of values that defines the human race e.g. honesty, integrity, proportionate scepticism, love, compassion, forward-thinking etc and uses him as an example of someone who didn't meet the requirement.

Edited by Carnival

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What is it about the Irish and sex - a nation that has given us the craic, Guiness, Brian O'Driscoll, Will John McBride, Riverdance, Nadia off Im A Celebrity Get Me out of Here (cracking arse) and not to mention Geroge Bernard Shaw, Seamus Heaney and James Joycle but FFS - why are they so hung up on sex and imposing this draconian legislation 

 

I know their Catholic blah de blah and that shite but St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas both recognized 'prostitution' as serving an important social function - they did cross my heart and hope to die - so the Irish perplex me - I am beginning to think that you can judge a truly free society by how they legislate or not towards the buying of sex - if this legislation passes and I seriously doubt it will, it will just make it even more sexier and naughty to pay for sex and drive it underground and make it unsafe for some of the ladies - weird how repressive legislation has this effect.

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I guess, if this law is passed, our friends in Ireland will need to start their field reports with "This happened to a friend of a friend..." .

 

Also if the bit about 'any place' (any person who purchases a sexual service from another person, in any place, he or she shall be guilty of an offence.)goes into the bill then we will have Garda officers hanging around in Bangkok and Philippines bars to gather evidence!

 

Huh, shouldn't be too much of a problem since a member of the Irish police already left a highly sensitive laptop in a sex club. 

(Open to correction on that, 95% sure it was an Irish copper.)

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That Jim Wells is one of the most disgusting beings with a pulse in NI. A proven fabricator of evidence during the committee hearings stage of this bill. And that fabrication was even backed up by his own researcher. It may well be that in 100 years time academics establish a set of values that defines the human race e.g. honesty, integrity, proportionate scepticism, love, compassion, forward-thinking etc and uses him as an example of someone who didn't meet the requirement.

 

Yes, failed human. He also defamed me in a very serious manner. BIG mistake. 

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What is it about the Irish and sex - a nation that has given us the craic, Guiness, Brian O'Driscoll, Will John McBride, Riverdance, Nadia off Im A Celebrity Get Me out of Here (cracking arse) and not to mention Geroge Bernard Shaw, Seamus Heaney and James Joycle but FFS - why are they so hung up on sex and imposing this draconian legislation 

 

I know their Catholic blah de blah and that shite but St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas both recognized 'prostitution' as serving an important social function - they did cross my heart and hope to die - so the Irish perplex me - I am beginning to think that you can judge a truly free society by how they legislate or not towards the buying of sex - if this legislation passes and I seriously doubt it will, it will just make it even more sexier and naughty to pay for sex and drive it underground and make it unsafe for some of the ladies - weird how repressive legislation has this effect.

 

The NGO sector in Ireland is rotten to the core, it's all about money. Awareness among Irish people is growing though, and I anticipate some heavy 

opposition to Ftizgerald's bill. 

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The NGO sector in Ireland is rotten to the core, it's all about money. Awareness among Irish people is growing though, and I anticipate some heavy 

opposition to Ftizgerald's bill. 

Rather famously the ex CEO of one Irish NGO had the board pay her over €400K in salary and bonus in one year while demanding that many workers in the same organisation have their wages pushed back to minimum wage!

Also one of the NGOs prominent in the TORLER madness, Ruhama spends a phenomenal amount of money on 'Administration' and has actively benefited financially by being given fines imposed on sex workers by the courts! Tell me again, what do you call somebody who benefits financially of sex workers' backs?

Lara, I do hope you are right that opposition will build against this insanity, but I fear that sex worker haters, traffickers, nasty pimps, psychotic clients, the insatiable greed of certain NGOs, redneck imbeciles and cynical careerists will be the big winners and sex workers will be the major losers and to a lesser extent working class male clients! That is of course until a successful constitutional challenge!

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There is no formal word on the progression of the bill to criminalize clients in The Republic yet, but the relevant Minister has said she wants it before parliament before the Summer recess, they normally get their holidays in Mid July!

 

A wonderful beautiful Irish celebrity and Journalist, Vogue Williams has come out in favour of the right to consent -

 

http://www.sundayworld.com/news/columnists/vogue-williams/vogue-williams-june-28

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Has there been a heat wave in Ireland or something? She's looking very well.

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There is no formal word on the progression of the bill to criminalize clients in The Republic yet, but the relevant Minister has said she wants it before parliament before the Summer recess, they normally get their holidays in Mid July!

 

A wonderful beautiful Irish celebrity and Journalist, Vogue Williams has come out in favour of the right to consent -

 

http://www.sundayworld.com/news/columnists/vogue-williams/vogue-williams-june-28

 

Pity she seems a complete airhead.

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The Cabinet in The Republic has approved the new Sexual offences Bill, which will be published in full this week!

 

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/law-criminalising-those-who-buy-sex-approved-by-cabinet-1.2353975

 

It will be passed perhaps with ammendments andcriminalizing the punter without any further decriminlaisation of sex work is a certainty within the next few months In the Republic of ireland, shamefully!

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NEW LAWS CRIMINALISING people who pay for sex have made it through to the next stage in the Irish House of Lords (The Senate/Seanad)

 

http://www.thejournal.ie/criminalising-sex-laws-passed-seanad-2372035-Oct2015/

 

Senators have agreed to move the proposals to Committee Stage next Tuesday.
The Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill covers a wide range of areas and includes new offences relating to the sexual exploitation of children, including paying for the purpose of sexually exploiting a child and sexual activity in the presence of a minor.
Prison sentences of up to 14 years are proposed for offences involving the sexual exploitation of children.
While the bill criminalises people who pay for sex, it doesn’t decriminalise prostitution. As a result, sex workers hit out at the bill last month saying criminalising the purchase of sex will “hurt the most vulnerable hardest”.
The Immigrant Council of Ireland said, “A historic moment has been reached in the battle to put pimps, traffickers and thugs out of business.”
Brian Killoran, Chief Executive of the Immigrant Council added:
“The decision of Senators to proceed with the Sexual Offences Bill again underlines the widespread political support for the targeting of demand for prostitution and sex trafficking with laws focusing on the buyers of sex.
There is broad acceptance across the political spectrum about the links between organised crime and prostitution in Ireland and the need to put the gangs behind the trade out of business.
“We welcome the agreement to proceed swiftly to the next stage of the debate next week when other areas of the bill will be addressed – including the need to ensure that at no stage will women in prostitution be treated as criminals for the exploitation they have endured.”
Sinn Féin Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh also welcomed the move, saying:
Prostitution is a vicious and brutal criminal enterprise when it allows pimps, traffickers and thugs to exploit women and young girls.
“The sex trade is now only second to drugs in terms of financing those who are behind Irish crime.”

 

Senator Trevor O'Clochartaigh is a chap from the redneck heartlands in Connemarra (and was an Irish Labour party election candidate before joining the Shinners!). He is a sort of Rhoda Grant with less Balls and not as innovative in his thinking!

 

There is a general election in The Republic about to be called by all accounts for November and a budget to be passed this month! So this Bill may be castrated in time! But will come back with a vengence!

BTW it's  a government sponsored bill and our government is the old Fascist Party plus the the Fake socialists of the Irish Labour Party, the latter have a frothing at the mouth hatred for Corbyn!

The Fascists are likely to be returned as the biggest party, but will need collaborators to form another misgovernment and more than just The Fake Socialists who will be ridden red raw up the hole by The Irish electorate!

 

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I am sure  that the working girls on this side of the Irish Sea will be able to accommodate Republic of Ireland punters with open arms and Ryanair will be only to happy to bring them.  

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Our General Election in The Republic will be called next week, with voting most likely on Feb 26th! An attempt was made today to rush the criminalize the punter bill through as the election is looming and the Bill has the support of most of the opposition parties also. The attempt was stopped, primarily by 2 independents who are avidly against the insane criminalization aspect! However, it will almost certainly be passed next week, so Ireland can shamefully formally join the register of sex worker hating countries!

The Bill is quite a complex one including many other clauses than just criminalizing the punter, ironically some of those clauses would be supported by any sane person!

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The Irish Prime Minister, Enda Kenny, Fascist Party Of Ireland, will dissolve our Parliament today or tomorrow at the latest! I am very reliably informed that The Anti sex worker Bill which they tried to rush through, will then collapse as there will not be enough time to pass it! However they will no doubt try soon enough next time out post the General Election and maybe make it even more insane! Laura may well have won her case in The Belfast High Court by then which will make politicians trying to introduce it down South a laughing stock!

BTW this bill was a very complex one which even could have had implications for sex education!

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On 2/2/2016 at 0:31 AM, SlickWilly said:

The Irish Prime Minister, Enda Kenny, Fascist Party Of Ireland, will dissolve our Parliament today or tomorrow at the latest! I am very reliably informed that The Anti sex worker Bill which they tried to rush through, will then collapse as there will not be enough time to pass it! However they will no doubt try soon enough next time out post the General Election and maybe make it even more insane! Laura may well have won her case in The Belfast High Court by then which will make politicians trying to introduce it down South a laughing stock!

BTW this bill was a very complex one which even could have had implications for sex education!

It did indeed collapse, but the new government has been urged to move forward with the bill.

At an event in Dublin on Wednesday, former sex workers and activists from the Turn Off the Red Light campaign, and an organisation called Space International, called for the immediate passing of the 2015 Sexual Offences Bill.

The Irish Times reported that Denise Charlton of the Turn Off the Red Light Campaign, claimed the legislation would protect sex workers by decriminalising them.

Does the bill really do that?

The Fact Checking team at thejournal.ie have examined this claim and have concluded:

  • It is true that the new bill would decriminalise public solicitation by sex workers.
  • However, the bill would also effectively maintain the criminalisation of loitering by sex workers, and effectively increase the penalties associated with it.
  • And the retention of the provision on brothel-keeping would maintain the de facto criminalisation of sex workers, and increase the penalties associated with it.

On balance, we find the claim, that the 2015 Sexual Offences Bill would decriminalise sex workers, Mostly FALSE.

The bill certainly criminalises buyers and pimps, but in two out of the three relevant areas of law, it also retains the criminalisation of sex workers, and increases the penalties to which they are liable.

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