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The Mega Brothel Channel 4

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Did anyone watch this documentary on Thursday.

Same old diatribe?

Change of opinion?

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I watched it and got shocked: a young girl of 23 years old who met some 15000 men by this age?

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I watched it and got shocked: a young girl of 23 years old who met some 15000 men by this age?

Really? 15000 men at 23 years old? If that is what was said I find it hard to believe...

Assuming she was 18 when she started that would make it on average over 8 guys a day, every single day for 5 years. That can't be right surely?? :blink:

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Really? 15000 men at 23 years old? If that is what was said I find it hard to believe...

Assuming she was 18 when she started that would make it on average over 8 guys a day, every single day for 5 years. That can't be right surely?? :blink:

 

Agreed - and who keeps count? No doubt a rough estimate but as i didn't see programme i can't say if it rang any more true or not the way the stat was delivered by whoever, even if she sadly started working younger than that.

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I so wanted to watch this and see how accurate is and if the media is at it again, making this life into something that it is not like they always do. I was on 4od and spotted it and thought great I'll watch that, then thought no I'll get to bed and watch it tomorrow. Bad idea! Woke up, searched for it and it's gone, I can't even find it on YouTube :( does anyone know where I can watch it? X

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It is repeated on 4Seven/Channel 47 on Free view TV on Monday at 22.00

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I watched it. It was trying to give a viewpoint on the German legislation of legalising prostituion.

Not a bad attempt, but didn't give me any answers to how that model would work/fail in the UK.

Some background history on a couple of girls and why they remain in prositution, and some opinions on human trafficing. This included a police raid

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Oh so nothing on the uk then? Would be lovely to see the media actually telling the stories of girls who are happy to escort and not all the bad side of it all the time, maybe I should make one myself, might be best of telling my family first though lol. Brilliant thanks sylver! It's set for recording :) x

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Really? 15000 men at 23 years old? If that is what was said I find it hard to believe...

Assuming she was 18 when she started that would make it on average over 8 guys a day, every single day for 5 years. That can't be right surely?? :blink:

 

Sylver mentions above when this programme with be repeated: towards the end of the programme, probably after 45 minutes is when the young, platinum blonde girl makes the statement that shocked me.  

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I watched it, and it was funny, in that I have no problem with the sex industry, lets be honest I'm a punter not a hypocrite on this, but I felt unconfortable with what was happening with it, in that it just seemed to be turning it into a factory, rather than the artisanal service that I want, and one of the reasons I don't use Maxes Angels anymore. That said when I use one of the big EE or thai agencies I'm fooling myself if I think it's much different in the uk, just spread out over many flats rather than all in one building.

 

Just like everything in my life I prefer the Artisan to the mass produced product, it removes the soul, the individuality, and lessens the experience. I guess if I was a buck a fuck guy and 15 minutes was all I was after then i'd be ok, but I prefer to savour the moment and 2 hours is about my minimum.

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I watched it, and it was funny, in that I have no problem with the sex industry, lets be honest I'm a punter not a hypocrite on this, but I felt unconfortable with what was happening with it, in that it just seemed to be turning it into a factory, rather than the artisanal service that I want, and one of the reasons I don't use Maxes Angels anymore. That said when I use one of the big EE or thai agencies I'm fooling myself if I think it's much different in the uk, just spread out over many flats rather than all in one building.

 

Just like everything in my life I prefer the Artisan to the mass produced product, it removes the soul, the individuality, and lessens the experience. I guess if I was a buck a fuck guy and 15 minutes was all I was after then i'd be ok, but I prefer to savour the moment and 2 hours is about my minimum.

 

So, was 15000 for 1 girl correct? 

 

I do agree with what you have to say, my conclusion was that if functioned as a service provided by certain girls for certain guys who do not care about discretion or the standards to which you adhere or many guys out there stick to.

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So, was 15000 for 1 girl correct? 

 

I do agree with what you have to say, my conclusion was that if functioned as a service provided by certain girls for certain guys who do not care about discretion or the standards to which you adhere or many guys out there stick to.

 

I have some doubts about the 15,000 figure, but I also think there was a lot missing by way of background to her story, just hints that she had been abused or pimped :(  A fuller explanation may have substantiated the number she gave.

 

For me the program gave some interesting insights in how not to legalise prostitution, or to be more precise brothels.  The business model was about driving numbers, and whilst the brothel owner was largely insulated from a downturn in business through the structuring of the charges, the women were left with either poor earnings or else a relentless pursuit of numbers.

 

I think that most people myself included would not consider it either good or sustainable, physically, and especially psychologically for WGs to be seeing 10 to 20 clients per day.  The program itself showed that this was taking a toll on some of the women.  I found that very sad.   If such commercial operations are to be permitted then I would suggest that the club owner, in effect their employer, but technically not I suspect, should be obligated with a legal duty of care to assess and support their WGs to avoid psychological or other damage.  The manager featured was I think not too concerned about this aspect given that according to him he was receiving 30 to 50 potential applications from women wanting to work there every day.

 

I've never felt comfortable about anyone profiting off the back of a WG's earnings, and for that reason since I discovered the existence of indies, that is where I choose to spend my time and money.  I also fear that if the market for commercial sex were to be commodified along the lines of the megabrothel that it would probably lead to a reduction in indies as price pressures were brought to bear.  It has some parallels between the rise of the impersonal superstore and the decline of individual high street shops.

 

I would not want to see the UK adopting the megabrothel model.  The key reform required in the UK imo is for it to be made legal for two or more independent women to work from the same premises for their safety etc.

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I think the concept of brothels either large or small is a complicated issue. 

 

Brothels serve a purpose- they allow women to work together (and maybe also have a security guard type too)  for safety- obviously a bonus, but also for support and learning from each other whether it be sex tips or health messages. They offer a location for women to work from when working from home or renting a separate premises is not an option. They undertake all marketing terms of a website, advertising elsewhere etc something not all women want to or are capable of and also they deal with the calls and emails etc. Again, for women who work secretly this is a benefit when they don't want a work phone or have the freedom to take bookings whenever (for example they are busy with kids or another job). 

 

However, I really don't like the idea that people profit off the earning of sex workers- but from a purely business perspective is a brothel any different from a catering agency (or indeed any other temp agency)  who provides waiting staff and obviously take a cut from the hourly rate paid. 

 

I really don't like the idea that doing say a ten hour shift women have to work clients back to back. You can argue that this might be no different from a long shift as a waitress on your feet with no break but when it comes to sex work it is very different- it's exhausting and draining to do that many men a day, especially if you have no choice who you see. 

 

If I took every booking from every dickhead that rang me I'd be a wreck after a few days and I'm pretty tough when it comes to sex work! 

 

The trouble is, like all trades sex workers are not a monolith- women are all different with what they can cope with and their feelings and reasoning behind why they do this work. There is a huge gap between the woman who does one day a week because she loves it and likes the extra money for holidays and the woman who needs to do it full time to feed her family and has no other options. 

 

In an ideal world all sex workers would be independent and have the choice when to work and who they see but also be able to work together for safety and support. Some kind of collective or ethical brothel where profits were shared fairly and noone was either forced or expected to see anyone who walked through the door. 

 

The trouble is, in our capitalist world where workers in many fields are not treated particularly well for profits of those at the top sex workers in an illegal, underground industry will never be free from exploitation. 

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I agree with TheVicar. I have misgivings about the 'German Model', as shown in the film, and would not support its introduction in UK. That said, there are some positives to places like Paradise. The girls are a lot safer working there than in a flat on their own, or worse, on the street. The film did not cover this, but I understand the girls have regular health checks and sex without a condom is illegal so in terms of physical health they are better off. Although it might be seen as one-sided, the girls do know where they stand financially. I was not convinced by the story that girls come out of the club and hand their earnings over to a pimp. I may happen in rare cases, but the girls do not need a pimp to work there and as the girls apparently live in the club, this seems implausible.

 

The psychological aspect worries me as well as it seems they work every day and long hours. I guess they can take a day off but there is always the pressure on them of thinking about the money they would lose.

 

The two sides in the legal/not legal argument are completely polarised and I wish we could have a proper well informed debate about the sex industry here, not a dialogue-of-the-deaf fuelled by misinformation (on both sides). For my part, I think the 'small' licenced brothels may be a good, if imperfect, solution if properly regulated. Quite how regulation would work and the definition of 'small' are matters of important detail which I can't answer but perhaps a proper debate might.

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The trouble with 'debate' is that this always seems to include those on the anti side, religious groups and others with a moral issue against sex work. Plenty of them use false statistics and come from a standpoint that no woman could possibly choose sex work. 

 

The only people who should be advising decision makers are those who actually work in the trade and those who do not come into it with All prostitution should be banned attitudes whether that's academics, SW support groups or the police. 

 

As we have seen time after time those who claim to want to rescue sex workers or criminalise clients are those peddling bollocks about the industry. 

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I agree with TheVicar. I have misgivings about the 'German Model', as shown in the film, and would not support its introduction in UK. That said, there are some positives to places like Paradise. The girls are a lot safer working there than in a flat on their own, or worse, on the street. The film did not cover this, but I understand the girls have regular health checks and sex without a condom is illegal so in terms of physical health they are better off. Although it might be seen as one-sided, the girls do know where they stand financially. I was not convinced by the story that girls come out of the club and hand their earnings over to a pimp. I may happen in rare cases, but the girls do not need a pimp to work there and as the girls apparently live in the club, this seems implausible.

 

The psychological aspect worries me as well as it seems they work every day and long hours. I guess they can take a day off but there is always the pressure on them of thinking about the money they would lose.

 

The two sides in the legal/not legal argument are completely polarised and I wish we could have a proper well informed debate about the sex industry here, not a dialogue-of-the-deaf fuelled by misinformation (on both sides). For my part, I think the 'small' licenced brothels may be a good, if imperfect, solution if properly regulated. Quite how regulation would work and the definition of 'small' are matters of important detail which I can't answer but perhaps a proper debate might.

 

Good post, and I do agree that all too often the debate is framed in terms of polar extremes, particularly by the antis.

 

The question you pose about regulation goes I think right to the crux of the matter.  If there is to be new legislation to legitimise small carefully run brothels then it is almost certain that there will be regulations associated with this, and imo the devil will be in the detail of those regulations.

 

We know that currently there are cases of women sharing working premises and they have to be very careful to avoid problems given the fact that such an arrangement is currently illegal, even if both are working entirely independently and voluntarily.  I can easily imagine a regulation being put forward requiring business planning consent for a brothel to operate.  Imagine the reaction to the planning notice dropping through the doors of neighbours, or the stance of a landlord. 

 

We already know that there is rank prejudice shown towards many sexual matters, especially if there is a perception that it would either be:

 

  1. A perceived threat or risk to children.
  2. A perception that it will attract undesirable types to the area.
  3. That in the light of the two preceding beliefs being true, that property values will be negatively affected. 

 

I have occasionally wondered as I walk towards a WG's premises what kind of threat I pose to those living in the area :confused: None.

 

Massage parlours, strip clubs, and even Swinger clubs have all struggled with planning permission in the face of determined if usually wholly misguided opposition.  I'm quite sure that if many current 2 WG flats were to make themselves known to their neighbours that the reaction would be one of astonishment on the basis that in many instances the neighbours had hitherto been oblivious of what was going on.  Likewise, but even more so for indies operating solo, not that it would stop a synthetic furore from ensuing as outlined above in items 1 to 3.

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The 15,000 girls said she aimed at 15 punts a day and on a very good day 20 though of course some days she might not pull. Personally the Mega Brothel is not for as I prefer a more leisurely and interactive punt. But of course similar places are regularly reviewed on Punternets  International Board.

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I watched the programme...

 

Personally, I don't disbelieve the girl with her estimation, and in times past I have done 15/20 in a day... it's not uncommon with a busy girl.

 

What I saw was that the client paid for entrance, which allowed him to eat drink and chill, after that it was down to the girls to vie for his attention to solicit him into a booking.

 

I don't really like that idea, nor is it my preferred way of working, however I have done it in similar concept in Birmingham.

 

The Girls, pay for the use of the facilities, and for board... so €23(29) to stay per night, which is about average in a back packers hostel, or a really cheap hotel, then she pays to be on shift... €120 to work for the day ( use the facilities)... anything beyond that is hers to keep, and what she charges for sex or extras isn't in the control of the people running the place.

 

So she has only her own skills of both persuasion ( solicitation) and then what she offers in the room...

 

Not unlike some places already running in the UK

 

Places in Leicester & Brum, you pay the basic rate of whatever, pick your girl from a line up ( have a beer or a sauna if you want) then go to the room where negotiations start... so example basic half hour is £60 in two places I know... Then the girls can charge whatever for extras...

 

They pay out a certain percent for the use of the room so example £20 £25 out of the half hour the girl takes £40 or £35 for a basic service, then if she gets her extras that can top up to £100 in some cases... £20 for OWO £20 for CIM, thats £40, then £40 for anal, so thats £80 + the original £40/£35 for the half hour, and you have £120/£115 for a half hour appointment.

 

That's what appearances on the programme led me to believe... only it's in € not £.

 

They seem to have cut out the taking a percentage and just chafed a flat rate... €120 for the day... so what the girls make in the room really has nothing to do with the owners, as they already got paid by the client on entrance, for a drink, food and use of the facilities.

 

 

In some respects the money aspect is better, and worse, if the girl doesn't manage to snag any clients, then she's out of pocket, but on the other hand if she has a busy day, then she's quids in.

 

All in all it was interesting.

 

And something that already takes place in the UK on a smaller scale, so not much difference in that aspect.

 

The girls seemed able to stay and not work a shift so if they wanted to take a day off then they could, they just didn't pay to be on shift, just for boarding., which is reasonable, they have a place to sleep and store stuff, and aren't trapped with no ability to leave, which is how it should be.

 

 

The Owner seemed far removed from certain aspects, and I did wonder if it wouldn't have been more prudent to have a person to talk to other than just the girls and management.

 

As for the Manager... personally I found him to be a douchbag, he showed that when he walked in and was told you can't just come in here willy nilly, and a know would have been better... As for his personal life, anyone involved in this industry, can and do have issues with the world at large, and partners...

 

So no I don't doubt his wife had issues with him being around Naked/scantily clad women all day, and then intruding on their personal time, which of course the owner seemed oblivious to, so in that regard, if your going to put a manager in charge really you need to also be talking to your girls etc, and finding out if there are any issues, which seemed beyond his comprehension.

 

The idea of it being in the open and accepted in the manner of which it is, there is appealing, similar in Nevada, and Australia, and they seem to have fewer problems, and fewer issues over it... Germany is still relatively new in comparison.

 

Liverpool with their system, works in the UK, seems to run relatively smoothly, it's slightly out of the way, and less obtrusive on the neighbours, but, it's almost an ostracised system, but it does allow for the allying of fears within the community, and mothers/religious types to feel that they are safe.

it also allows for the men who use the service to seek it, within some boundaries of privacy, but also has the flip, that if seen leaving that area everyone knows where you've been, which I suppose if you don't live there there isn't an issue.

 

Should it be legal, yes... should it be regulated, yes, should there be systems in place to help WG's exit if it gets to be too much yes...( of which there is little to none at present, and that is something that Neither side has made strong moves to rectify. The detractors scream about poor girls but do nothing to help those who wish to exit do so, and the pr side also try not to acknowledge that there are women who do the job and vehemently hate it, but can seem to find the help to get out of the industry and feel trapped)

 

All in all, it was both a reasonable assessment, and some of the same old... once again it's not a clear cut solution or resolution, and I think the UK will be in for some hard battles, for both our rights to work, and the girls right who shouldn't or don't want to be in the industry.

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Really? 15000 men at 23 years old? If that is what was said I find it hard to believe...

Assuming she was 18 when she started that would make it on average over 8 guys a day, every single day for 5 years. That can't be right surely?? :blink:

 

She only had enough clients to put 100e in her purse when they were filming after expenses, so possibly a slight exageration.  That was after a 13 hour shift.

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The girls who said she had seen 15,000 punters also said on a busy Saturday she maybe saw 15 punters, 20 on an exceptional day. I've been to a few of these places, not the Paradise chain ones, and can say that on Sundays and Mondays these places are very quiet so wouldn't see anywhere near that. The busy days are Friday and Saturday. So I think she may have been exaggerating, but she is an attractive lady so have no doubt she would be busy.  

There are many attractive ladies like her at these places. As mentioned in the film, as there are so many places (large and small)  everywhere there isn't the high number of punters there used to be when there isn't a trade fair on. I did find it disturbing when she mentioned the child abuse. In the past in the UK I've wondered who WGs got into the business, but its not something I like to ask, the same as when I've asked why I punt, or used to. When asked about a job in real life, I got the impression she was trapped because of the amount of money she earned. Ive met UK WGs like that, tried a real job at call centre earning a lot less but soon went back on 'the game'. 

 

More disturbing was the lady who mentioned she was in a home and was effectively pimped into the business. The film also mentioned that the government thought 300,000 of the WGs in Germany were pimped/forced.  That's a high number, fact or fiction.

 

5 people have been arrested at that place including the managing director.

 

http://www.stuttgarter-nachrichten.de/inhalt.bordell-razzien-fuenf-haftbefehle-im-paradies.fe25a316-5e52-4255-9e05-82db72a31386.html

 

 

 

 

I've arrived at clubs at the same time as WGs arriving and they had to pay to get in and also show passports/ID in order to prove that they were there of their own accord. Most arrived by taxi or their own car. I did see one arrive with her boyfriend/husband, they kissed good bye before she got out of the car. She was a German Turk.

I would have hoped that the management of these clubs would take more of an interest in whether the WGs are pimped/coerced or not, seeing as there are long prison sentences. As mentioned in the film it the system makes it harder to prove. Unless the WGs go to the law, then they have to raid the place and interview the WGs. The raid seems to have been an unusual occurrence. I would have hoped that in Germany with all its rules and regulations that I could have taken it for granted that a large club like would have been well within the law. It seems not, if they are convicted.  Hopefully the Germans will crack down on this.

 

They didn't show any interviews with WGs who were ok with doing what they do, who started work there on their own. Is that because they couldn't find any, or didn't show those as it wouldn't give them what they wanted out of the film.

 

Looking back, the WGs Ive seen in Germany have usually been very intelligent and spoke good English, as well as German. They didn't seem the type of person who would fall for the lover/pimp scenario and even if they did initially wouldn't stand for it. Not all WGs there though are like this. One of my favourites who I saw a lot didn't work Saturdays/trade fair times as she didn't like the crowds but preferred to work the quieter days and just see her regulars. That's one reason why I like this type of large club, you can pick someone who you are comfortable with. Go to a small UK brothel and there might not be someone you like out that much of the 3 or 4 WGs, but you feel obliged to stay/feel in the mood.

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They pay out a certain percent for the use of the room so example £20 £25 out of the half hour the girl takes £40 or £35 for a basic service, then if she gets her extras that can top up to £100 in some cases... £20 for OWO £20 for CIM, thats £40, then £40 for anal, so thats £80 + the original £40/£35 for the half hour, and you have £120/£115 for a half hour appointment.

 

That's what appearances on the programme led me to believe... only it's in € not £.

 

 

 

Most of these bigger clubs in Germany have a standard charge. €50 for half an hour including kissing and OWO. Some don't kiss or do OWO but wont be so busy, but its up to them. In a couple of places in the north west,  its €75 for an hour, but most are €50 for each 30 minutes. CIM is €50, anal €100.

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