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YourSlave

Yet Another Call For The Ikea Model In Scotland

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-31154896

 

 

Churches and other religious organisations have written to the first minister saying doing so could have a significant effect on human trafficking and exploitation.

 

If it isn't radical feminist Labour politicians it's Churches and religious groups, who also offer "prayer" to women on the streets of Glasgow.

 

Also this:

 

"Their families should know exactly what they're doing."

 

In other words out them to their families? If it's against the wishes of the individual I don't think that's a great idea.

 

 

She said the current law, which criminalises the sale of sex, but does not address those who purchase it, fails to help women to exit prostitution.

 

MSP Rhoda Grant used to say this all the time too, it's false and misleading, the current law in GB does NOT criminalise the sale of sex (unless it's selling sex from a brothel, but the Nordic model doesn't change that anyway).

Edited by YourSlave

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-31154896

 

 

If it isn't radical feminist Labour politicians it's Churches and religious groups, who also offer "prayer" to women on the streets of Glasgow.

 

Also this:

 

In other words out them to their families? If it's against the wishes of the individual I don't think that's a great idea.

 

 

MSP Rhoda Grant used to say this all the time too, it's false and misleading, the current law in GB does NOT criminalise the sale of sex (unless it's selling sex from a brothel, but the Nordic model doesn't change that anyway).

The sale of sex in a brothel isn't illegal, it is managing the brothel which is illegal.

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The sale of sex in a brothel isn't illegal, it is managing the brothel which is illegal.

 

Even so, if sexworkers who work in a brothel can still be guilty of managing it unless I'm mistaken.

 

If there's no "pimp" involved and it's simply 2 sexworkers working from one flat then they are both managing it.

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On the topic, can anyone confirm if any law has been broken by anyone (in Scot/Eng/Wales) if a client books 2 sexworkers outcall to his place? Would that make the client's place a "brothel" for the duration they were there? That's something I've never quite been sure of.

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On the topic, can anyone confirm if any law has been broken by anyone (in Scot/Eng/Wales) if a client books 2 sexworkers outcall to his place? Would that make the client's place a "brothel" for the duration they were there? That's something I've never quite been sure of.

Brothel is a place where more than one woman offers sex, paid or not.

 

Not sure who's running it though!

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Even so, if sexworkers who work in a brothel can still be guilty of managing it unless I'm mistaken.

 

If there's no "pimp" involved and it's simply 2 sexworkers working from one flat then they are both managing it.

They probably can, but the actual selling of sex is not illegal, its the activity surrounding it.

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Back to Ikea, I believe it's not as simple as criminalising the purchase. The nordic countries also helpfully made it illegal for sex workers to operate from indoor premises, so they are constantly ducking, diving, working from cars, taking other risks and being made homeless. The 'nordic' model doesn't penalise them for actually being paid for the sex act, but it makes the remainder of their lives dangerous and unstable.

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Back to Ikea, I believe it's not as simple as criminalising the purchase. The nordic countries also helpfully made it illegal for sex workers to operate from indoor premises, so they are constantly ducking, diving, working from cars, taking other risks and being made homeless. The 'nordic' model doesn't penalise them for actually being paid for the sex act, but it makes the remainder of their lives dangerous and unstable.

Making life hell on earth for sex workers was of course, a very much intended effect of this insane law as it will be in Ireland, when it's passed here in the Republic! There is no doubt sex workers, female in particular, suffer vastly more under this madness than anyone else!

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People need to be looking at the other bits of the law that are brought in alongside the main "purchase of sex" section, and point them out. Many politicians are often not aware of the ins and outs of the law surrounding sex work and some whose basis is to protect women often aren't aware of the bits of legislation which sneakily actually make prostitution and the women involved in it less safe.

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Even so, if sexworkers who work in a brothel can still be guilty of managing it unless I'm mistaken.

 

If there's no "pimp" involved and it's simply 2 sexworkers working from one flat then they are both managing it.

No sex worker that just goes into the brothel, works her day and goes home can be guilty of managing a brothel. If she does manage it however then thats a different story

 

Regarding your second point. If two independent sex workers are sharing a flat then yes technically they could be arrested for managing a brothel but if they can prove that they have their own individual advertising and only take bookings for themselves then who are they actually managing other than themselves so I doubt it would go to court. If they take bookings for each other then there would be a case but still..hard to actually prove. 

 

Its one of those technical grey areas. To be honest though I think most areas do tend to ignore indies 

Edited by Chloe Kisses

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Back to Ikea, I believe it's not as simple as criminalising the purchase. The nordic countries also helpfully made it illegal for sex workers to operate from indoor premises, so they are constantly ducking, diving, working from cars, taking other risks and being made homeless. The 'nordic' model doesn't penalise them for actually being paid for the sex act, but it makes the remainder of their lives dangerous and unstable.

 

I did not know this.. Is that new?

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I did not know this.. Is that new?

I'd have to look up the exact bit of legislation but apparently they made it very difficult for sex workers to work from any property.

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The nordic countries also helpfully made it illegal for sex workers to operate from indoor premises,

 

Quote from sex worker Carina Edlund of Rose Alliance, Sweden:

 

 

“Before even thinking of a law that criminalises men who buy sex, UK politicians should hear from Swedish sex workers like myself about how we have treated under the law. We are still criminalised if we work together in apartments, we risk losing our home if we sell sex there even if we own it, social workers treat as like children and we can even lose custody of our kids because we are seen as victims suffering from a form of self-harm who can't take care of ourselves. This law should be taken away not exported to other countries.”

 

http://lauraslifeandthoughts.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/sex-workers-response-stop.html

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Back to Ikea, I believe it's not as simple as criminalising the purchase. The nordic countries also helpfully made it illegal for sex workers to operate from indoor premises, so they are constantly ducking, diving, working from cars, taking other risks and being made homeless. The 'nordic' model doesn't penalise them for actually being paid for the sex act, but it makes the remainder of their lives dangerous and unstable.

 

Here are the laws in question (somewhat similar to UK law before "living off immoral earnings" was replaced with "controlling prostitution for gain"  in 2003? )

 

 

http://www.bayswan.org/swed/swed_law.html

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SCOT-PEP have just circulated this message to sex workers and punters in Scotland:

Dear friends,

SNP MSP Ash Denham has just put down a motion calling for the criminalisation of the purchase of sex in Scotland. This approach, known as the Nordic model, harms people who sell sex – and it harms those who are already the most vulnerable the worst. For example, a Norwegian government report found that in the wake of implementing the Nordic model, "violence has increased ... this is particularly the case for the weakest groups – addicts, the mentally ill, and people from other countries – the forced prostitutes ... The law on the purchase of sex has made working as a prostitute harder and more dangerous" (see report here).

This piece of research from the British Medical Journal is probably one of the most clear and accessible academic articles that explains how the criminalisation of clients harms sex workers, so if you're not sure how criminalising clients hurts people who sell sex, that's a good piece to read. This is a great piece of journalism by former SCOT-PEP worker Nine, on what she saw when the Scottish Parliament criminalised the purchase of sex on the street in 2008. 

We would be really grateful if you would email your MSPs asking them not to support Ash's motion. You can find out who your MSPs are by putting in your postcode on the Scottish Parliament website (here) – you should have eight. You can email them all in one go – no need for eight separate emails. Our suggested email (but feel free to write your own!) is:

"Dear MSPs,

I'm writing as your constituent to ask you not to support motion S5M-04115 on the subject of the Nordic model of prostitution in Scotland. International evidence from UNAIDS, Amnesty International and the Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women show that this approach harms people who sell sex. Even the Norwegian government, a country which has implemented this law, has found that "
The law on the purchase of sex has made working as a prostitute harder and more dangerous" (see here).

I'd urge you to speak to sex worker-led groups in Scotland, namely SCOT-PEP, the Sex Worker Open University, and Umbrella Lane for guidance on how best to protect people who sell sex, and to read SCOT-PEP's briefing on the effects of this law for people who sell sex. 

Best ..."

This should only take two minutes of your time and we would be incredibly grateful. Please feel free to forward any responses you get (good, bad, or bizarre ...) to chair@scot-pep.org.uk – all info is useful to us! 

Thanks in advance,

The SCOT-PEP team. 

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Posted (edited)

The implication in the wording of the SCOT-PEP message above is that the motion calling for the criminalisation of the purchase of sex in Scotland is a motion that is to be put to the Scottish Parliament.

In fact it is a motion that will be put to the SNP Spring Conference this Friday afternoon. The full text of the motion is as follows:

SCOTTISH MODEL OF LEGISLATION ON PROSTITUTION

Conference agrees with the Scottish Government’s NHS guidelines on Commercial Sexual Exploitation which outlines the harmful effects on prostituted women: that a majority suffer high levels of physical violence, rape and post traumatic stress; that there is a significant effect on mental health; and that there is a significant link with drug abuse.

Conference further acknowledges that in countries where prostitution is legalised there is an associated increase in human trafficking, child prostitution and other forms
of criminality.

Conference recognises the successful legislative approach to prostitution pioneered in Sweden over the last sixteen years, also now adopted in Norway, Finland, Iceland and more recently in Canada, Northern Ireland and France, which focuses on reducing demand for commercial sexual exploitation.

Conference therefore supports the development of a Scottish model of legislation that (1) decriminalises the sale of sex, (2) criminalises the purchase of sex and (3) offers appropriate support for those wishing to exit commercial sexual exploitation.

Conference further agrees that such actions are in accordance with the Scottish Government’s Equally Safe strategy regarding violence against women and in particular that commercial sexual exploitation, including prostitution and human trafficking, is a form of violence against women.

The motion is supported by:
SNP HADDINGTON BRANCH
SNP GLASGOW SHETTLESTON BRANCH
ASH DENHAM MSP
JOHN MASON MSP

KATE FORBES MSP
GEORGE KEREVAN MP
PHILIPPA WHITFORD MP

JOAN MCALPINE MSP

Umbrella Lane, a grassroots organisation, dedicated to the provision of a rights-based, holistic approach to meet the multiple needs of those involved in sex work in Scotland has sent a copy of this letter to all SNP MSPs.

Edited by Carnival

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I hope that the SNP MSPs bother to read it - and without prejudice.

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2 minutes ago, pabulum said:

I hope that the SNP MSPs bother to read it - and without prejudice.

Agreed, but it's a long and quite dense read. although making good points.

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It is, but it's the sort of topic which (one hopes) deserves time and effort.

One hopes. One doesn't wish to believe that it will be approached by many solely from a bigoted point of view.

 

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I see that SCOT-PEP are holding a fringe meeting, sadly the day AFTER the vote on the sex work motion.

SCOT-PEP
Saturday 18 March
Boardroom, First Floor, AECC
09:00 – 10:00

Breakfast discussion on sex worker rights, human rights, and the New Zealand model.
Join us for coffee to hear from sex workers, sex worker rights activists and human rights activists discuss sex worker safety.
SCOT-PEP is Scotland’s longest-running sex worker-led charity, and this event is an opportunity for you to hear from people who are too often spoken for not spoken with.

This session will be competing for delegate participation with sessions on:

PLANNING YOUR CAMPAIGN – AN ACTIVIST’S GUIDE TO STV (single transferable vote)

HAMMOND’S BREXIT BUDGET (and what it means for Scotland)

or indeed just getting up late after any previous night revelry.

 

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On 15/03/2017 at 0:37 AM, Carnival said:

I see that SCOT-PEP are holding a fringe meeting, sadly the day AFTER the vote on the sex work motion.

SCOT-PEP
Saturday 18 March
Boardroom, First Floor, AECC
09:00 – 10:00

Breakfast discussion on sex worker rights, human rights, and the New Zealand model.
Join us for coffee to hear from sex workers, sex worker rights activists and human rights activists discuss sex worker safety.
SCOT-PEP is Scotland’s longest-running sex worker-led charity, and this event is an opportunity for you to hear from people who are too often spoken for not spoken with.

This session will be competing for delegate participation with sessions on:

PLANNING YOUR CAMPAIGN – AN ACTIVIST’S GUIDE TO STV (single transferable vote)

HAMMOND’S BREXIT BUDGET (and what it means for Scotland)

or indeed just getting up late after any previous night revelry.

 

It looks like what should have been a civilised discussion was subverted by a group of Nordic Model Now advocates who started shouting down the speaker.

As one Edinburgh sex worker later tweeeted:

Yet another woman came up to apologise for the way the speaker was treated at @ScotPep fringe event at #SNP17. It was rude and uncalled for.

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In the aftermath of the SNP Spring Conference, SCOT-PEP (the sex worker-led charity that advocates for the safety, rights and health of everyone who sells sex in Scotland)  have issued this message, which I think is worth reproducing here in full:

Hello!

As many of you will have seen, the SNP conference voted to support a motion calling for the Nordic model. (Coverage in the Independent, and on CommonSpace.) We're obviously extremely saddened and worried by this, as the Nordic model has been shown repeatedly to endanger the safety of people who sell sex. We're also a little frustrated as we feel the SNP delegates who voted didn't have all the information they needed to make decisions around this fraught and complex policy issue – indeed, many SNP members approached us after the vote to say exactly this. Further, our activists were heckled, jeered, interrupted, and treated with extreme hostility by a small number of people who attended the fringe event we ran. This is really distressing – whatever someone's views on sex work, it should be possible to listen to sex workers talking about their experiences and about policy without feeling the need to aggressively jeer and heckle.

Obviously those jeering were a tiny minority of people attending the conference – SCOT-PEP activists also had loads of really great, positive, engaged conversations (including with people who disagree with our position), and met lots of SNP members who deeply care about sex worker safety. Indeed, we're feeling very upbeat about the number of great connections we made with committed, thoughtful activists. (Thanks especially to all those who spoke up for sex worker safety during the debate.)

In a way, when something like this happens, it's very galvanising – we've already had an influx of sex workers keen to get involved in SCOT-PEP, for instance, and lots of messages of support from allies. If the weekend's bad news has made you feel you want to get more involved, please do get in touch! You can email us at voice@scot-pep.org.uk. Please note, though, that due to the number of people getting in touch at the moment, we might take a few days to get back to you.

We'd also like to take this opportunity to emphasise that we have no core funding, and donations from generous supporters really are crucial in enabling us to pay for basic things like travel expenses, childcare, photocopying, and the phone bill. One-off donations are amazing, but even just a small monthly direct debit is the single most helpful thing you can do for us – £5 a month on a consistent basis honestly means the world to us. You can make a one-off donation or set up a monthly direct debit here

It's been a bruising weekend but we're keen to dust ourselves off and keep working on ensuring rights and safety for everybody who sells sex in Scotland – with renewed focus and energy. We'll keep you updated x

 

 
 
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