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Dave451

Trend In Northern Ireland

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It is now only two weeks before buying sexual services becomes illegal in Northern Ireland. I have been doing some research to investigate how this change will affect the industry there. As I am not a professional sociologist my time and resources are limited so I just collected data from two sites that advertise escorts: Adultwork and Escort Ireland. I did not make any attempt to validate the data or to filter out any adverts that may not be genuine, but I did not see any obvious fakes that would have invalidated the data. Escort Ireland includes a few male escorts. I included these but the number is not significant.

 

My results, so far, can be viewed at:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hwO2y9NInUXW35ZzWbYS_u_zYJJ2bJwNR29_V-B0RA0/edit?usp=sharing

 

This shows a drop in the number of advertisers at the start of the year. This might be due to the new law being announced but since then the data, from both sites, is fairly flat, but with a small rise in May. It will be interesting to see what happens when the new law comes into force on 1 June 2015 and I will continue to update the data for the next few months.

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Thanks for the post and the attachment. It will be interesting following your updates.

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I imagine there will be a dip in activity although I presume there is no risk to the advertisers.  In the long run I don't think the wider community care that much and the police won't be using any more resources that they are forced to. 

If it happened here it wouldn't put me off.  I'd be a lot more careful and probably be much more wary of seeing new girls to me.

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I imagine there will be a dip in activity although I presume there is no risk to the advertisers.  In the long run I don't think the wider community care that much and the police won't be using any more resources that they are forced to.

If it happened here it wouldn't put me off.  I'd be a lot more careful and probably be much more wary of seeing new girls to me.

Absolutely.

There's one social science researcher ( I forget the name ) who will point out to anyone who will listen is that there is a lot of research on differing legal frameworks, but very little on differing policing practices.

 

In Sweden the police seem to prosecute with zeal. I believe in Canada the police are not applying the new law except when another one has been broken. And in NI I think the PSNI have said they will be targetting punters who buy from trafficked women. 

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Absolutely.

There's one social science researcher ( I forget the name ) who will point out to anyone who will listen is that there is a lot of research on differing legal frameworks, but very little on differing policing practices.

 

In Sweden the police seem to prosecute with zeal. I believe in Canada the police are not applying the new law except when another one has been broken. And in NI I think the PSNI have said they will be targetting punters who buy from trafficked women. 

 

The NI legislation is part of an act that sets out to tackle traffiking. The feminists have sucessfully conflated traffiking (which I agree is evil) with all sex work, including arrangements between consenting adults, if payment is made. The law includes a review (after three years I think) to determine if it is effective. So I think it is important to collect evidence for this review.

 

The anti-brigade always quote Sweden as a great sucess for prohibition, but if one Googles: "Stockholm Escort", for example, one can see that prostitution in Sweden is a long way from being stamped out by the best efforts of Swedish boys in blue. Looking at the Swedish advertisers, most of them are from the European Community, so if the law is so effective, why do they not simply move to countries, such as Germany, where punters are not hounded?

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The Sunday World set up a fake escort profile last week in Dublin to see what happened and did a big spread about it this Sunday just gone  :mad: About how all these punters were soon going to be criminals. 

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The Sunday World set up a fake escort profile last week in Dublin to see what happened and did a big spread about it this Sunday just gone  :mad: About how all these punters were soon going to be criminals. 

I had a look at the Sunday World web site but could not find this story - does anyone have a link please.

 

Looking through the other SW stories, it is clear that PSNI, and Garda, have other major crime issues to deal with. The problem with the new law in NI is that it does not differentiate between those who are forced to sell sex and those who sell sex by informed consent. There is an argument for the customers of trafficked women (or men) being prosecuted, particularly if they knew this to be the case. However, to use scarce PSNI resources to go after consenting adults must surely weaken the overall intent of the bill which is to offer protection to victims of trafficking.

 

On a wider point, I wonder if, while PSNI and Garda are chasing down and prosecuting consenting adults, who are buying sex, they will fail to see 'Rotherham' type gangs who are exploiting vulnerable young people completely outside the orbit of paid-for-sex. It is naive to think this type of exploitation is not happening in Ireland and diverting resources away from such serious matters to activities, that are not crimes in most of Europe, is crass stupidity, but required under the new NI law.

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The day of shame has arrived and the first part of the UK to join the list of sex worker hating countries has come!

Punters engaging with fellow consenting adults are criminalized in Northern Ireland from today and the Republic will follow suit shortly, with laughably sex tourism from the Northern part of the Island, used as an excuse to hasten it! :eek:

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The day of shame has arrived and the first part of the UK to join the list of sex worker hating countries has come!

Punters engaging with fellow consenting adults are criminalized in Northern Ireland from today and the Republic will follow suit shortly, with laughably sex tourism from the Northern part of the Island, used as an excuse to hasten it! :eek:

I know that the Republic has been keen to criminalize consenting adults. However, how is the progress of that bill/law going? When will it become law in the Republic? End of this year, next year? Thanks.

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If the purpose of this law is to tackle trafficking it's a sledehammer approach that will miss the target.

 

The truth is that the anti brigade are more interested in stopping the sex industry on their own moral grounds, the usually attitude of narrow minded, intolerant and nosy interfering busybodies.  Trafficking is a convenient excuse that gets them support.  It should be more unlikely that this could happen in the rest of the UK, but when I was growing up Sweden was perceived as a sexually liberated country.

Edited by robert49

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Sweden was NOT a sexually liberated country, it was always a conformist country. You are confusing the fact that it was a country that introduced public nudism as part of its healthy living policies. It was also a country that between the two world wars introduced compulsory sterilisation of imbeciles and other undesirables. It took the lead in requesting the Germans to introducing the stamping of J (for Jews) on Jewish peoples passports and introduced many racist ideas which the Nazis adopted. 

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Sweden was NOT a sexually liberated country, it was always a conformist country. You are confusing the fact that it was a country that introduced public nudism as part of its healthy living policies. It was also a country that between the two world wars introduced compulsory sterilisation of imbeciles and other undesirables. It took the lead in requesting the Germans to introducing the stamping of J (for Jews) on Jewish peoples passports and introduced many racist ideas which the Nazis adopted. 

You know even when typing that bit out I wondered if it was right, that's why I put perceived.  Me and my friends were very ill informed about a lot of things.  :unsure:

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Here are the June figures for sex workers advertising on adultwork and escort-ireland web sites in Northern Ireland and Dublin.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hwO2y9NInUXW35ZzWbYS_u_zYJJ2bJwNR29_V-B0RA0/edit#gid=0

 

The NI legislation making the purchase of sexual services illegal came into force on 1 June 2015. There has been a small drop in those advertising on adultwork and a marked drop in those advertising on escort-ireland, but the EI figues do tend to be more variable.  There appears to have been an increase in prices. PSNI has not reported any raids on brothels or trafficked women 'rescued' (ie. deported).

 

It is too early to draw any conclusions about whether the legislation has had any effect on the industry, but I will continue to monitor the figures for the next few months to see if any trends emerge.

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Interesting stuff Dave, cheers.

It looks very possible that quite a few escorts could be lying low or sticking to regulars until the situation becomes clearer as to how the law is policed.

I thought I'd look again at the QUB study published in August 2014 which mentioned 63 advertisers on E-I in Northern Ireland.

Right now there are just 21 female advertisers on Escort Ireland in the six counties of NI ( 0 IRE 0 NI 1 GB and 20 from other countries ).

The Day You Pay might want to claim that as a result.

We would beg to differ, as the intention of the law should have been to reduce involuntary prostitution and that QUB study mentions what a workable baseline is:

"PSNI data show that between 2009 and June 2014, the total number . . . of confirmed victims (of trafficking for sexual exploitation) is 26" of which 8 were children.

Time will tell if this improves.

Edited by bongo

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The NI legislation is part of an act that sets out to tackle traffiking. The feminists have sucessfully conflated traffiking (which I agree is evil) with all sex work, including arrangements between consenting adults, if payment is made. The law includes a review (after three years I think) to determine if it is effective. So I think it is important to collect evidence for this review.

 

The anti-brigade always quote Sweden as a great sucess for prohibition, but if one Googles: "Stockholm Escort", for example, one can see that prostitution in Sweden is a long way from being stamped out by the best efforts of Swedish boys in blue. Looking at the Swedish advertisers, most of them are from the European Community, so if the law is so effective, why do they not simply move to countries, such as Germany, where punters are not hounded?

If you mean they have fraudulently ammassed figures to attempt to prove its one and the same thing,then yes.We all know trafficking does occur.This however won't stop it,won't even dent it.Trafficking for sex work is in the minorority.It may pay better than most trades but there is still a limit of work as well as not being horrible or crude,there will be only certain types that it would be worth putting to work this way.Theres far more work in the cleaning industry,catering,construction,especially when you realise that a trafficked worker,all his pay goes to the boss,in return he gets a roof,last guy i spoke to there were five of them in his room,so not a great cost for his "boss" and food.Food wise he was initially just getting rice,when he proved a good worker he got some chicken as well(boss owned a resteraunt so at wholesale,thats not a lot of outgiung either)

Then you have domestic servitude.Au pairs etc.There was a big demo recently against this due to the amount of women being sold into such posts which was part about the inhuman working conditions the also about the numbers being assualted.both physically and sexually by their "bossess".

Again,you see little about this.Maybe as the law makers themselves rely on such cheap home help.

note also that most of their propaganda doesnt say anything about male sexual trafficking.It seems only women can be forced and coerced into it.An attitude i find a tad puzzling when its brought up as a feminist issue.So only women can be victims.

As for any review..Realistically they have no idea on actual figures,from number of active sex workers through to numbers of trafficked people.They literally have made them up.With this in mind do you really think they'd admit the law hadn't worked or do you think they'll produce figures declaring it an overall success and maybe even state that the legislation needs further tightening just to make sure.

 

 

I imagine there will be a dip in activity although I presume there is no risk to the advertisers.  In the long run I don't think the wider community care that much and the police won't be using any more resources that they are forced to. 

If it happened here it wouldn't put me off.  I'd be a lot more careful and probably be much more wary of seeing new girls to me.

I don't think there will be that much of a dip.The people on the forums etc,on teh net side of things seem to be pretty well informed as a whole on prostitution and the law.The majority,joe blogs out there however seems to take much of their legal knowledge on the subject from cop shows,and then it seems mainly Yank ones.Stuff like an undercover police officer must admit that he is such if asked.The times i've heard that quoted.And with prostitution.They see people getting nicked,they see stings in drama programmes etc and really don't realise that prostitution as a whole isn't illegal,just certain aspects of it.

With that in mind,if you have been doing something you already believe to be illegal,the fact it now is isn't going to change much so from a punters prospective theres very little change.For the ladies involved however its a whole new ballgame.Once the police know where they're working from,how easy is it to put a police presence there to deter punters or just to go for the easy nick.(ome will say well people will just deny thats why they're there.They forget how nervous some get when confronted by uniformed officers and the number of people that convict themselves by saying the wrong thing)Imagine what that does to trade.That leaves them with one option.Move.How easy does it become to hound them out of areas.The police don't forget won't be harrassing the ladies but the "law breakers" visiting them.Then you add neighbours spotting the old bill loitering about.How long until they twig.

I know some will be questioning whether this would really happen.Don;t forget,there were many who just want prostitution banned but they don't want to be seen attacking the women they have portrayed as "helpless victims sucked into this vile and evil trade by evil bastard men" as that would ruin the image they are trying to portray.Like any political maneuver they have gone around the bushes as it were but with the same definate aim in mind.

One firther thing for you all.It would be prudent to remember that especially in recent years the gvt has tested new legislation in Scotland and Ireland before rolling it out to the rest of the UK.

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The other problem is when sex workers take on other jobs or courses or voluntary work. They are effectively involved in an illegal transaction, at present in England and Scotland one can say that the work they do or have done is legal (this is a question that is asked at interview), imagine that changing to 'Well I'm ok but my customers break the law"............it makes things more difficult for women leaving or trying to engage in other domains. I imagine however that if they say they hated the work, were forced into it, but have now changed/escaped well that is probably ok............

Edited by Strawberry

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If you mean they have fraudulently ammassed figures to attempt to prove its one and the same thing,then yes.We all know trafficking does occur.This however won't stop it,won't even dent it.Trafficking for sex work is in the minorority.It may pay better than most trades but there is still a limit of work as well as not being horrible or crude,there will be only certain types that it would be worth putting to work this way.Theres far more work in the cleaning industry,catering,construction,especially when you realise that a trafficked worker,all his pay goes to the boss,in return he gets a roof,last guy i spoke to there were five of them in his room,so not a great cost for his "boss" and food.Food wise he was initially just getting rice,when he proved a good worker he got some chicken as well(boss owned a resteraunt so at wholesale,thats not a lot of outgiung either)

Then you have domestic servitude.Au pairs etc.There was a big demo recently against this due to the amount of women being sold into such posts which was part about the inhuman working conditions the also about the numbers being assualted.both physically and sexually by their "bossess".

Again,you see little about this.Maybe as the law makers themselves rely on such cheap home help.

note also that most of their propaganda doesnt say anything about male sexual trafficking.It seems only women can be forced and coerced into it.An attitude i find a tad puzzling when its brought up as a feminist issue.So only women can be victims.

As for any review..Realistically they have no idea on actual figures,from number of active sex workers through to numbers of trafficked people.They literally have made them up.With this in mind do you really think they'd admit the law hadn't worked or do you think they'll produce figures declaring it an overall success and maybe even state that the legislation needs further tightening just to make sure.

 

 

I don't think there will be that much of a dip.The people on the forums etc,on teh net side of things seem to be pretty well informed as a whole on prostitution and the law.The majority,joe blogs out there however seems to take much of their legal knowledge on the subject from cop shows,and then it seems mainly Yank ones.Stuff like an undercover police officer must admit that he is such if asked.The times i've heard that quoted.And with prostitution.They see people getting nicked,they see stings in drama programmes etc and really don't realise that prostitution as a whole isn't illegal,just certain aspects of it.

With that in mind,if you have been doing something you already believe to be illegal,the fact it now is isn't going to change much so from a punters prospective theres very little change.For the ladies involved however its a whole new ballgame.Once the police know where they're working from,how easy is it to put a police presence there to deter punters or just to go for the easy nick.(ome will say well people will just deny thats why they're there.They forget how nervous some get when confronted by uniformed officers and the number of people that convict themselves by saying the wrong thing)Imagine what that does to trade.That leaves them with one option.Move.How easy does it become to hound them out of areas.The police don't forget won't be harrassing the ladies but the "law breakers" visiting them.Then you add neighbours spotting the old bill loitering about.How long until they twig.

I know some will be questioning whether this would really happen.Don;t forget,there were many who just want prostitution banned but they don't want to be seen attacking the women they have portrayed as "helpless victims sucked into this vile and evil trade by evil bastard men" as that would ruin the image they are trying to portray.Like any political maneuver they have gone around the bushes as it were but with the same definate aim in mind.

One firther thing for you all.It would be prudent to remember that especially in recent years the gvt has tested new legislation in Scotland and Ireland before rolling it out to the rest of the UK.

Yeah, like The Poll Tax and that worked out very well for them! :D

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Yeah, like The Poll Tax and that worked out very well for them! :D

Technically it did.They just rebranded it and introduced it anyway

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I have added the figures for July. The numbers in Northern Ireland advertising on Adult Work are down this month but those on Escort Ireland are up. The Escort Ireland figures for Dublin are up. There does not appear to be much change in pricing and PSNI have not reported any punters beeing arrested for buying sexual services.  I don't think we can draw any conclusions yet about the effeciveness, or otherwise, of the NI legislation, but sex work is still a thriving industry in NI.

 

The figures are on: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hwO2y9NInUXW35ZzWbYS_u_zYJJ2bJwNR29_V-B0RA0/edit?usp=sharing

 

I have started drafting a report on these findings. This won't be completed until December, when we will have a full year of figures, but I am thinking about opening a copy of the report for comment. Is anyone interested in participating?

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Glad to add comments if they might help, but I've no knowledge of NI.

 

The drop in AW might perhaps be in part the fact that the site seems to be becoming less effective in attracting clients, or so I gather. There are a fair few variables at play, I'd guess.

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You are quite right Pab there are many factors that could affect the number of sex workers advertising on these site. I am not a professional sociologist and have limited time, but I thought a simple evidence-based study might help shed some light on the effectiveness of this legislation. The number of workers advertising does not directly correlate with demand for these services and still less with the prevalence of trafficking. It is only two months since the Act came into force, but if it is to meet its stated aims - to reduce demand and so reduce trafficking - then I would expect to see:

  • A fall in advertising as WGs leave NI for other places, such as UK mainland, Eire or Germany.
  • A fall in prices due to the laws of supply and demand.

We have seen neither so far - if anything prices have edged up though not by much.

 

I will open the report for comments shortly but will restrict editing rights for obvious reasons. I hope those who support the legislation will also comment (I'm sure they read these forums!) but to be of any use comments, apart from editorials, should be supported by evidence as the aim is to produce evidence-based conclusions which were sadly lacking when the Act was debated. 

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Hi Dave451, you're working off just two advertising sites.

When Queens University Belfast did their survey of the state of prostitution they worked off 7 I think including the two that you mentioned, and they plan to repeat their study again when the Act is reviewed to measure if the picture has changed.

In that time new methods of advertising may emerge which give more anonymity or alas new methods may emerge which involve greater use of pimps, we don't know. All I'm saying is that you need to find an angle which isn't already being covered by the academics to make the analysis really interesting. Good luck though.

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Thanks Bongo - do you have a reference for the Queen's study? I would really like to include more sites but don't have the time to do this so I pick two which seemed to have a good range of adverts. I wish I had the luxury of sitting in a academic institution and doing this sort of work rather than having to do my day job!

 

The Act is not due for review for another three years and I guess this will be the timeframe for the Queen's study. I felt it was important to see what happens in the six months leading up to the Act coming into force and the six months after that - whether I continue after that will depend on my circumstances. Do you have any suggestions for new angles?

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Hi again Dave,

This is the October 2014 report

http://www.dojni.gov.uk/index/publications/publication-categories/pubs-criminal-justice/prostitution-report-nov-update.pdf

On page 22 ( section 2.2.19 ) they list 8 ways service providers advertise ( thought it was 7 but it's actually 8 ), and page 37 shows the numbers advertising on the given control date in August 2014.

So what's missing from this report, or what might change as the criminal age progresses? I can only make some guesses.

1 - The situation in RoI could change, but more adverts in the border counties of the Republic are likely as you say, as long as it remains legal there.

2 - The big one imv will mirror the changes in Sweden where there has been a big rise in advertising of strictly non-sexual therapeutic massage services operating from retail units and private addresses. You could try getting a count of them from Yellow Pages and online ads from now. Some will be 'legit', some might offer more once a customer is known to be safe but probably not on the first visit. Then check the situation in a couple of years time. I think the academics missed capturing the size of this in 2014, possibly because it is small, but it is likely to grow. Include gumtree in any search for legit massage as the QUB people missed gumtree out.

3 - Controlling the data. As the therapeutic massage industry is growing anyway, you'd need estimates of numbers from other regions. If it grows 50% in Dublin, 50% in Glasgow and 150% in Belfast then something is afoot. If all cities show growth of 100% then it proves nothing that is relevant to prostitution legislation, just that more people like getting a massage.

Also check the table on page 116 for ideas - about 1/6th of liaisons were NOT initiated online.

Just some ideas. Academics have it easy as they have all day to look at this sort of thing. And they don't get slaughtered if they miss something.

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