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Uncle Pokey

Times Opinion Article Saturday 6Th June

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Yes - sorry CovP I would have done this if I had had the tech. 'ken' so to do.

UP

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so we are in a "peculiar corner of cyberspace"... what a wonderful description :D

 

Couldnt read further due to the afforementioned paywall but was immediatly impressed that upon discovering 19 sex workers offering goodness knows what within a mile of her house the woman didnt then just write a freak out article. Seems she is a sensible girl. Might even pay the 3 quid just to read the rest to be honest. How refreshing

Edited by Chloe Kisses

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Criminalising sex is a dangerous crusade Antonia Senior
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Published at 12:01AM, June 6 2015

Making it illegal to pay for a prostitute won’t stop the oldest profession. It will go underground and put more women at risk

It doesn’t take long to find a prostitute. Ninety seconds on the internet, and I find a list of 19 women who live within one mile of my suburban house, offering everything from fetish work to adult mothering, whatever that is.

Helpfully, previous punters have left reviews. These are reminiscent of the old brothel guides of the 18th century, but without the wit and charm. Most seem to concentrate on the woman’s ability to provide the Full Girlfriend Experience, or GFE as it seems to be known in this peculiar corner of cyberspace. Many insist that the worker in question enjoyed the sex. Of course she did, dear.

It is a depressing foray. Beautiful young things offer acronyms and pictures of isolated body parts to deluded male and female punters. Yes, women too. The same website provided me details of ten straight male prostitutes within a one-mile radius. Aaron, “a young black stallion”, charges £40 for 15 minutes with the lucky ladies. But if I opted to invite Aaron around for a £40 frolic, should that be a criminal offence? In France, it may soon be illegal to pay for prostitutes. Punters face fines of up to £1,200 and up to six months in jail after an anti-vice bill was revived this week following attempts to kill it off. The Labour MP Fiona Mactaggart proposed an amendment to the Modern Slavery Bill last year, which would have made paying for sex illegal in this country. It didn’t pass.

The stated aim of the French minister Najat Vallaud-Belkacem is to “see prostitution disappear”. A laudable aim; as hard to argue against as world peace and kissing kittens. There is a hardening of attitudes to the sex trade in Europe, driven by three factors. The first is a utopian impulse that insists we can eradicate prostitution. The second is a moral crusade. The third is concern for those coerced into selling their bodies.

It is a truism to say prostitution is as old as human history; the temples of early civilisations doubled as brothels and Jesus was forgiving of working girls. But Ms Vallaud-Belkacem hypothesises that if, millennia later, you remove demand, you will destroy supply.

If we’re taking history as a template, can anyone think of an instance in which legal prohibition of something naughty removed, rather than displaced, demand? Humans like sex, and some like to pay for it. I do not have to understand, or condone this, to recognise it as something we have to live with.

But my mild distaste for The Game is another woman’s moral crusade. Ms Vallaud-Belkacem belongs to a tradition that insists all sex workers are victims. This is the feminist paradox: the central tenet of the movement is that women must have the right to make their own decisions. Yet women have an awkward propensity to choose complicity in the exploitation of their bodies. The examples of liberated women behaving in an unliberated way are endless: Page 3, porn, the ambition to marry a footballer, the bikini-clad wife of the tycoon who lets him walk her on a leash like a dog.

My feminist sisters tie themselves in theoretical knots over the paradox. The easiest way to undo this part of the knot is to insist that all female prostitutes are victims — either directly or through the limiting of their life choices by poverty or drug abuse. Never mind that the women themselves, speaking through prostitutes’ collectives, deny they are all victims. Can you successfully ignore all facts that muddy a sexy theory? Welcome to the club of left-wing feminism.

Many women choose to be sex workers. It may be a choice between a low-paid job with long hours, or sex work, but this is still a choice and not an irrational one. Researchers at Leeds University found earlier this year that more than 70 per cent of those who had chosen to do sex work had previously worked in healthcare, childcare or the charity sector — and 38 per cent had university degrees.

Nonetheless, sex work is more dangerous than other jobs. A 2005 study showed that prostitutes were 12 times more likely to be murdered than other women their age. Rape is an occupational hazard.

A proportion of prostitutes are coerced into the game. But how do you differentiate between those who choose the life and those brutalised into it? When does economic migration by a woman who chooses sex work from limited options become trafficked sex slavery? Boundaries are blurred; insisting that they are straight-edged can only lead to poor law-making.

Prostitutes’ rights groups claim that criminalising punters forces sex work underground and makes it more dangerous. Sweden made it illegal to buy sex in 1999, and its government has claimed this has led to a decline in prostitution. Critics say that sex work in Sweden has moved into darker alleys, without declining in any significant way.

Recent figures suggest that 4.2 per cent of British men use prostitutes. In Greater London the figure rises to 8.9 per cent. Depressing statistics. But would we really want scant resources wasted on chasing these punters? What good would it do — and, more to the point, what harm?

We must resist moral crusades against prostitution and attempts to criminalise the profession further. The preoccupation of any legal framework surrounding prostitution must be the safety, health and welfare of the women involved. Prohibition does not help or protect anyone, least of all the women offering a Full Girlfriend Experience and more to 8.9 per cent of the nice, family men in my London nook.

Edited by griffon11
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Again the full article if someone can do that please. I can't understand how they would ever enforce a law that made paying for sex illegal, I cannot see any woman I've ever paid for sex standing up in court as a prosecution witness against me, why would they do that and as far as I'm aware "sting" style operations are not legal in this country, the time and money that would be put towards attempting to enforce such a law would be far better spent tackling organised crime. Making paying for sex illegal is not going to stop it happening and by driving us underground you are playing into the hands of the criminal gangs behind the trafficking because they are already operating outside the law they will be the people best placed to exploit a situation where all men who do this are now criminals themselves.

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Thank you griffon, a sensible, fair and balanced article I think.

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Yes thanks Griffon.

 

Fair and balanced yes, this will be the view of most tolerant people I hope.  It could never be hoped that the general view would ever be more accepting, just so long as they leave us alone to enjoy our "delusions".

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wonder where she got this from

 

'Recent figures suggest that 4.2 per cent of British men use prostitutes. In Greater London the figure rises to 8.9 per cent.'

 

no reference for the figures.

 

i think its far far higher.  Just look at the number of girls on AW who have signed on in the last week, and all the girls in parlours.  Prostitution only pays of you get clients, so someone must be 'using' them.

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She does (mostly) talk sense, but making paying for sex illegal is not going to make us go "underground". Since advertising sexual services won't be illegal, and accepting money for sex won't be illegal (since we're 'victims' they don't wish to victimise us further) I'm going to continue to operate in exactly the same way, and the guys who come to see me now will continue to discreetly knock on my door, and leave with that furtive look on their face. What exactly is going to go "underground?" Guys in the street may have to be a bit more wary when they're kerbcrawling, but that's illegal already, and doesn't seem to get enforced. A lot of fuss over bugger-all.

Edited by MatureUschi
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wonder where she got this from

 

'Recent figures suggest that 4.2 per cent of British men use prostitutes. In Greater London the figure rises to 8.9 per cent.'

 

no reference for the figures.

 

i think its far far higher.  Just look at the number of girls on AW who have signed on in the last week, and all the girls in parlours.  Prostitution only pays of you get clients, so someone must be 'using' them.

 

Some will be earning and some won't.  It doesn't work across the board so to speak.  You have your high flyers riding the crest of a wave and milking it for what they can for as long as they can, who are possibly also risk takers and party girls.  You have the career ladies, commanding a good rate and working to their own needs and ability, staying within their comfort zone, in order to keep longevity (several years) and then you have those that don't really know how to play the game, work the advert and just about make ends meet and finally those living hand to mouth and taking each job as a last resort.

 

There may be others that I've not considered, but the point is that we are not all equal in our ability to earn or how we earn.  Some may do it rarely, or as infrequently as possible, while another may push themselves to the very limit for several months in order to gain vast amounts and live off it for the rest of the year etc.

 

It's like no other job you can imagine in terms of financial flexibility and earnings.

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She does (mostly) talk sense, but making paying for sex illegal is not going to make us go "underground". Since advertising sexual services won't be illegal, and accepting money for sex won't be illegal (since we're 'victims' they don't wish to victimise us further) I'm going to continue to operate in exactly the same way, and the guys who come to see me now will continue to discreetly knock on my door, and leave with that furtive look on their face. What exactly is going to go "underground?" Guys in the street may have to be a bit more wary when they're kerbcrawling, but that's illegal already, and doesn't seem to get enforced. A lot of fuss over bugger-all.

 

you misunderstand the concept of going underground.

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you misunderstand the concept of going underground.

That's perfectly possible. Care to explain then?

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She does (mostly) talk sense, but making paying for sex illegal is not going to make us go "underground". Since advertising sexual services won't be illegal, and accepting money for sex won't be illegal (since we're 'victims' they don't wish to victimise us further) I'm going to continue to operate in exactly the same way, and the guys who come to see me now will continue to discreetly knock on my door, and leave with that furtive look on their face. What exactly is going to go "underground?" Guys in the street may have to be a bit more wary when they're kerbcrawling, but that's illegal already, and doesn't seem to get enforced. A lot of fuss over bugger-all.

 

We don't really know for sure what form such legislation would take, your right to say that at the moment it would likely be aimed at the punter. By using the term "underground" we're talking about a change in behaviour, as a punter my membership of AW or even the things I've written on this forum could potentially be used to prosecute me, if I and others start to avoid these well known places you can bet that those who are already involved in the darker side of the business will be quick to captalise on that by creating sites that offer anonynimity to those using it just as there are sites where you can buy other things that the law prohibits.

Edited by Maze

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That's perfectly possible. Care to explain then?

 

Underground is to do with no longer having ties with the police/psni If in Northern Ireland.  You can not afford to report anything that happens against you without potentially losing both clients and anonymity.  You could find yourself homeless if they choose to informt the landlord of what you are doing, as it becomes a crime to knowingly rent out accommodation for immoral purposes.  The threat imposed by this law is what makes us go underground, so where we may have a superficial presence on the internet, beyond that we remain anonymous.

 

Clients will have to go through more rigourous stages of security before being accepted, which is unnerving for them, but vital for the sex worker.  Other means of advertising will be adopted, which will leave the outward methods there for show alone, people will be untraceable and cease to exist other than the facade they hide behind.  There is no room for error.

 

Reviews will be far and few between and forums will be a thing of the past.  Clients have left in droves from the forum I frequented more recently and I've reduced my own involvement ten fold, as being noticed is no longer a good thing.  As time goes on people will be relying on old reviews to guide them, making it harder for anyone new to get known and trusted.  The established if playing safe will be okay, but things can't stay as they were and we will have to learn to adapt accordingly.

Edited by kissxkate
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You're right, I didn't realise that. Thanks for clarifying.

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You're right, I didn't realise that. Thanks for clarifying.

 

That's okay, I work in Northern Ireland so I guess it has already impacted on me.  I did want to add one more thing, which is quite important.  The emphasis of our own safety, will be replaced by the emphasis of the safety of our clients, which is our bread and butter.

 

It's not a great situation to be in.  Last Week was the first Week working with this new law and it was quiet for everyone working here in the North, but by Friday it really picked up, so by the end of the first Week clients were already buckling down to their natural urges.  There will always be work, but playing safe and discrete and hoping nothing happens that means you need police support is by far the greatest concern. 

 

Hopefully they will see sense and say it's all been a silly mistake, but I doubt that will ever happen.

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That's okay, I work in Northern Ireland so I guess it has already impacted on me.  I did want to add one more thing, which is quite important.  The emphasis of our own safety, will be replaced by the emphasis of the safety of our clients, which is our bread and butter.

 

It's not a great situation to be in.  Last Week was the first Week working with this new law and it was quiet for everyone working here in the North, but by Friday it really picked up, so by the end of the first Week clients were already buckling down to their natural urges.  There will always be work, but playing safe and discrete and hoping nothing happens that means you need police support is by far the greatest concern. 

 

Hopefully they will see sense and say it's all been a silly mistake, but I doubt that will ever happen.

 

Yes it throws up some interesting questions, would sites like this or AW or agencies all become illegal. History shows us that making something illegal doesn't stop the demand for it, the prohibition of alcohol in the United States was a gift to organised crime.

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Yes it throws up some interesting questions, would sites like this or AW or agencies all become illegal. History shows us that making something illegal doesn't stop the demand for it, the prohibition of alcohol in the United States was a gift to organised crime.

 

They are talking about making it a sexual offense to use a sex work database in Ireland.  They can't stop the websites from operating unless they are in the same Country where it is illegal to use them.

 

Forums will be hit very bad.  People will be cautious to use them and ppl will be cautious to review, as it could be used against them as evidence, although of course just because you said something happened, did not mean it happened.  There is no physical proof unless you are caught in the act.

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If they find a full condom in a wgs bin they could use the dna to put the punter there. There could be traces of the punter on the money.

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So in a time of austerity when police and other budgets are being cut, the PSNI is going to devote resources to bursting in on adults engaging in harmless consensual activity, gathering artifacts as evidence and subjecting them to expensive DNA testing and then clogging the courts with the results. Meanwhile heaven help you if your house is broken in to and stuff stolen. Sorry we don't have the resources to take your break-in incident any further.

 

Only in the crazy mad theocracy that is NI....... 

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That's okay, I work in Northern Ireland so I guess it has already impacted on me.  I did want to add one more thing, which is quite important.  The emphasis of our own safety, will be replaced by the emphasis of the safety of our clients, which is our bread and butter.

 

It's not a great situation to be in.  Last Week was the first Week working with this new law and it was quiet for everyone working here in the North, but by Friday it really picked up, so by the end of the first Week clients were already buckling down to their natural urges.  There will always be work, but playing safe and discrete and hoping nothing happens that means you need police support is by far the greatest concern. 

 

Hopefully they will see sense and say it's all been a silly mistake, but I doubt that will ever happen.

I imagine the more nervous clients will be sticking to ladies that they have already  met so avoid any real or imagined stings that truth or gossip may send around. I dont know, Im not in Northern Ireland but if I was a guy there who is a punter I know I would be sticking to ladies who already had solid reputations or ones that I had already met personally. Im guessing that the new girls will find it hard to break into the northern ireland scene for the forseeable future as they could be regarded with a tad of suspicion for suddenly setting up where its just been made illegal. To be honest, it could work out for the better for the already established ladies in the long run just for this simple reasoning. New girls in an area often have guys rushing to them, is it possible that it could now be the opposite in Northern Ireland in the forseeable future?

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So in a time of austerity when police and other budgets are being cut, the PSNI is going to devote resources to bursting in on adults engaging in harmless consensual activity, gathering artifacts as evidence and subjecting them to expensive DNA testing and then clogging the courts with the results. Meanwhile heaven help you if your house is broken in to and stuff stolen. Sorry we don't have the resources to take your break-in incident any further.

 

Only in the crazy mad theocracy that is NI....... 

They would have to bust in on every escort in every town during every booking till they happened to bust in during the actual sexual act, busting in on someone having a post or pre shag cup of tea and a natter wont be evidence enough, I can see it now

 

"They were sitting in the living room having a cup of tea, fully dressed but there was a fully made up bed withing the house so the assumption is that eventually they would have made their way to it although we dont know for a fact as a cup of tea doesnt necessarily consitute an invitation to debauchery"

 

"upon entry we found lady A in her dressing gown and mr b in the shower. The bed was made and the window open in the bedroom. According to lady A mr B and her were having a cup of coffee in the lounge when he had a coughing fit and spat coffee all over the both of them, hence her being in her dressing gown and him in the shower, no sexual activity was seen"

Edited by Chloe Kisses

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They would have to bust in on every escort in every town during every booking till they happened to bust in during the actual sexual act, busting in on someone having a post or pre shag cup of tea and a natter wont be evidence enough, I can see it now

 

"They were sitting in the living room having a cup of tea, fully dressed but there was a fully made up bed withing the house so the assumption is that eventually they would have made their way to it although we dont know for a fact as a cup of tea doesnt necessarily consitute an invitation to debauchery"

 

"upon entry we found lady A in her dressing gown and mr b in the shower. The bed was made and the window open in the bedroom. According to lady A mr B and her were having a cup of coffee in the lounge when he had a coughing fit and spat coffee all over the both of them, hence her being in her dressing gown and him in the shower, no sexual activity was seen"

surely they have to have evidence of payment and the shagging.  how do you prove the payment was for the shagging?  it is probably legal to give aromatherapy but things got out of hand? 

 

We have enough trouble proving rape when one party is not happy.  how on earth do you get a conviction when both parties were happy with the arrangement?

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surely they have to have evidence of payment and the shagging.  how do you prove the payment was for the shagging?  it is probably legal to give aromatherapy but things got out of hand? 

 

We have enough trouble proving rape when one party is not happy.  how on earth do you get a conviction when both parties were happy with the arrangement?

They seem to manage it in Sweden.

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