hans66

The Valkenburg Case Of 29 Prosecuted Men

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29 men who punted a girl will are at the court in Maastricht, because the girl which is thought to be 18 years old, is actually 16. Prostitution is illegal if the prostitute is younger than 18 years old. The girl was in love with her pimp.

 

The point is, that she wrote in her profile that she was 18 (apparently aware of 18 being the minimum age for being a prostitute), which was actually a lie. I believe the men to be tricked into the punt, and committing a crime by punting her. There are rumours that the girl wasn't completely forced and also wanted to have sex with unknown men against money.

 

Two of several men (not between these 29 men) have already committed suicide, fearing being condemned to jail, and losing their job and/or facing their marriage or relationship to be ended.

 

The Dutch district attorney (Officier van Justitie) demands imprisonment between 6 months and 3 years. For some men a part of that imprisonment is conditionally (with a probation of 3 years). I don't know whether conditional imprisonment is usual outside the Netherlands, but that means that when they are caught again, the conditional imprisonment will be realised and there will be a new sentence.

 

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2015/07/valkenburg-hotel-teen-prostitute-case-29-men-face-charges/

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For some men a part of that imprisonment is conditionally (with a probation of 3 years). I don't know whether conditional imprisonment is usual outside the Netherlands, but that means that when they are caught again, the conditional imprisonment will be realised and there will be a new sentence.

 

I don't really have any comment to make on the case but on the point quoted above I will just let you know that we do have conditional imprisonment in the UK.  Here it is known as "suspending of sentence" or "a suspended sentence".

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I would have thought that if a guy can show an advert which states the escorts age as being legal then they have a defence. But I'm not a lawyer.

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That is what the lawyers of the men are refering to. They blame the girl to provoke the men into committing that crime, which is a crime itself (according to articles 47, 48 and 49 of Dutch Penal Code).

 

Saying that you are 18 and everything is allright, while actually you are 16, is provoking a crime, and the lawyers see that in the same way.

 

The district attorney blames the men for not asking an ID to the girl (on which the real name of the girl may be printed). But punters should realize that a sex worker will never comply to that request, since she would compromise herself. I think every sex worker is aware of that and won't ever give her ID.

Edited by hans66

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One of the theoretical advantages of licensed brothels is that the license holder (ie management) has to check the ages of the workers.

That way the punter can't directly know the WG's identity, but can reasonably think that someone else has checked it.

This case occurred in a country where licensed brothels do exist. In this case none of the punters can reasonably think that the WG's age was checked because it was a hotel, and it's not their job. Letting the men off undermines the whole purpose of local authority licensing and rips off WGs and their managers who play by the rules.

Send 'em to the slammer m'lud.

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Yes they are being prosecuted for a crime, but how fair is it? Come on when do punters ask a Wg if they can see two forms of ID? She wouldn't show him, and if it was the other way round the punter won't either.

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That is what the lawyers of the men are refering to. They blame the girl to provoke the men into committing that crime, which is a crime itself (according to articles 47, 48 and 49 of Dutch Penal Code).

 

Saying that you are 18 and everything is allright, while actually you are 16, is provoking a crime, and the lawyers see that in the same way.

 

The district attorney blames the men for not asking an ID to the girl (on which the real name of the girl may be printed). But punters should realize that a sex worker will never comply to that request, since she would compromise herself. I think every sex worker is aware of that and won't ever give her ID.

I booked a girl whose stated age was 23 and even assumed she might be older.  When I saw her in the flesh she actually appeared a lot younger than her photos suggested and I did question her age. She was out of the room in a flash and came back with her passport which confirmed her age and obviously her real name.

 

The punt went badly :(

 

I think the onus has to be on the punter.  I know some won't agree but you have to protect yourself.  If she hadn't produced ID would I have walked? I honestly don't know.

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Yes they are being prosecuted for a crime, but how fair is it? Come on when do punters ask a Wg if they can see two forms of ID? She wouldn't show him, and if it was the other way round the punter won't either.

 

That is also exactly my point. The cause that the IDs are not shown is that the WG can be blackmailed. It makes her extra vulnerable, also because of the stigmatizing policy of the Dutch government and its state propaganda.

 

A case has two sides. There is a reason that someone commits a crime. Sometimes it is pure psychopathy, but that is not the case here of course. The punters thought everything is alright because the WG says the she was 18. Provoking is a crime.

 

There are other things to think of. I can also say that the WG commits a crime. Provoking and staying in the hotel with her pimp. If a WG has no municipality permit to be a prostitute or some has no permit to run a brothel, that kind of prostitution is illegal. The Dutch municipalities are not particularly generous with distributing prostitution permits. That is not a crime, but a violation of administrative code (Bestuursrecht).

 

Another point is that the WG seems to be forced to prostitution, but but only a fraction of that story is true. She was in love with the pimp and she told him that she would do everything he wants, including having sex with unknown men against payments. The pimp has already been sentenced to imprisonment, I believe that is 2 or 3 years, I have to look that up.

 

The show process is not over yet. On Thursday, the 23rd of July at 13:30 (Dutch time) the judge will come with a verdict.

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About committing a crime, I say a documentary of a woman that seemingly was stalking someone and tried to steal that man's car keys. That what she has been accused of and was penalized a while ago. You would think, that woman is a criminal. But is she someone who has no conscience? What is her story?

 

The point is: She was a veterinarian and on her estate she had several swans. She tried to protect her swans against drifting. The police does nothing, unless the swan drifter calls the police against her. And that even lead to penal prosecution. The police adviced her to say the drifters to get from her property, but she does that all the time, but the drifters completely ignore her and continue drifting her swans.

 

In this case it is about self-defense. In the case of the punters it is about ignorance and being tricked and provoked. Each crime has a story.

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t

I would have thought that if a guy can show an advert which states the escorts age as being legal then they have a defence. But I'm not a lawyer.

Why? Its his responsibility to make sure he definatley knows she is of age. When I used to see younger guys I asked for ID because it was my resposibity to ensure they were old enough. When you are meeting people at the lowest legal age for this industry then its your responsibility to check for your own sake that they really are old enough. I wouldnt dream of seeing an 18 or 19 year old without checking there birthdate on their ID. Yes its the girls fault for giving a false age but its also their own fault for not engaging big brain. Everyone knows that girls younger than 18 sneak or are sneaked in via the age thing, guys also sneak in by claiming they are 18, I dont take their word for it, why do guys not check the ID of girls who are teens??

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Yes they are being prosecuted for a crime, but how fair is it? Come on when do punters ask a Wg if they can see two forms of ID? She wouldn't show him, and if it was the other way round the punter won't either

 Ignorance is no excuse I guess is the reason, being ignorant of the fact doesnt cancel the fact that you did it I suppose.

 

You are wrong though, I never once had a younger client refuse to show me their ID, they didnt even hesitate to agree and all arrived with it and happily showed me. Young guys get turned away from ladies who are older a lot so I guess they are used to the request and half the time just relieved they have found one who agrees to a booking

Edited by Chloe Kisses

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Anyone got any idea how they tracked the 29 men down, and hope to catch another 50? It doesn't sound like a sting operation where they picked the men up as they were leaving the hotel. Perhaps, a combination of CCTV at the two hotels, coupled with records from a seized mobile. If so, it is good reason for using an unregistered punting phone. Or, perhaps, it was a failed blackmailing operation by the pimp, maybe? In a country which is so liberal, they seem to have gone to some lengths to track down the 'guilty' parties, and appear to be still investigating. It looks like there might be more to it to me. Anyone got any thoughts or theories?

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Perhaps the girl in question wasnt really so happy to be fucking all those men, perhaps it wasnt done for love at all, perhaps thats just what she was programmed to tell anyone who asked and what her pimp put on her profile. Sounds like there is far more to this than meets the eye for them to be hunting the men down so stringently. Perhaps its been going on since she was 10 11 12 13  or so. Sounds like a peodophile hunt to me not a silly punter hunt

Edited by Chloe Kisses

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Isn't it against the etiquette to ask a WG for an ID. I tend to think that these guys are no experienced punters and hardly aware of the law related to prostitution.

 

An experienced punter would also notice whether the WG enjoys the sex or not. They describe the girl as passive. But there is no law yet that criminalize the punter if he continues the punt, when the girl has been forced. In most cases he won't notice it, because you must be a professional and reading human behaviour very well.

 

In my case, when I look at the age of the WG, I can roughly base their age on their profile, but also on their appearance on the photo of the profile and - later on - when the punt itself starts. "My" WGs are well over the minimum age. The latest WG I had was 30 years old. The second latest (almsot 9 months ago) was about 46 years old.

Edited by hans66

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It's extremely likely that the majority of the accused will be ahem our cousins from the other side of the world who have brought their cultural differences with them.

Of course no punter could ask a WG for her passport directly. But this is Holland where they've a culture and a system called legalisation. You want to rent a room in the Wallen, or work in a brothel, then your age is checked by the renter or management. It isn't a perfect system but these took a different cultural route, that the Dutch system doesn't apply to them. She was under 18 - they appear not to have thought to ask if the hotel room was booked under the WG's name ( I assume hotel reception check this ).

Seeing an advert with aged 18 on it for a WG clearly working outside the system is not a reasonable basis for believing that she was of age imv.

Edited by bongo

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One of the men was mentally unstable. There is too little proof against him and the judge declares him to be not guilty and therefore acquits him. Because of his mental state there was a verdict after 20 minutes instead of after two weeks which is the case of the other prosecuted men.

Edited by hans66

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One of the men was mentally unstable. There is too little proof against him and the judge declares him to be not guilty and therefore acquits him. Because of his mental state there was a verdict after 20 minutes instead of after two weeks which is the case of the other prosecuted men.

if he was mentally stable enough to book, arrive, pay for and fuck an underage girl then he is mentally stable enough to face the consequences of those actions

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Isn't it against the etiquette to ask a WG for an ID. I tend to think that these guys are no experienced punters and hardly aware of the law related to prostitution.

 

An experienced punter would also notice whether the WG enjoys the sex or not. They describe the girl as passive. But there is no law yet that criminalize the punter if he continues the punt, when the girl has been forced. In most cases he won't notice it, because you must be a professional and reading human behaviour very well.

 

In my case, when I look at the age of the WG, I can roughly base their age on their profile, but also on their appearance on the photo of the profile and - later on - when the punt itself starts. "My" WGs are well over the minimum age. The latest WG I had was 30 years old. The second latest (almsot 9 months ago) was about 46 years old.

Really?There are many who just don't care if she does or not.I think we've all seen reports stating stuff like,she just lay there or comments on unresponsiveness etc.In all the reorts i've read like that i've never read,so i immediately left.

For that second part,there is in this country.If you punt with someone who has been trafficked/coerced it doesn't matter if you knew or not.

 

It's extremely likely that the majority of the accused will be ahem our cousins from the other side of the world who have brought their cultural differences with them.

Of course no punter could ask a WG for her passport directly. But this is Holland where they've a culture and a system called legalisation. You want to rent a room in the Wallen, or work in a brothel, then your age is checked by the renter or management. It isn't a perfect system but these took a different cultural route, that the Dutch system doesn't apply to them. She was under 18 - they appear not to have thought to ask if the hotel room was booked under the WG's name ( I assume hotel reception check this ).

Seeing an advert with aged 18 on it for a WG clearly working outside the system is not a reasonable basis for believing that she was of age imv.

I remember a case from the US some years back now.Fella pulls this woman at a bar(now remember the US drinking age is 21)Go back to his,she spends the night.They meet up a few more times until the day he gets nicked.Turns out she was underage.Her parents found out,notified the authorities and he gets a statutory rape charge.

In many laws in many countries,ignorance is not deemed a valid defence.

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Really?There are many who just don't care if she does or not.I think we've all seen reports stating stuff like,she just lay there or comments on unresponsiveness etc.In all the reorts i've read like that i've never read,so i immediately left.

For that second part,there is in this country.If you punt with someone who has been trafficked/coerced it doesn't matter if you knew or not.

 

I remember a case from the US some years back now.Fella pulls this woman at a bar(now remember the US drinking age is 21)Go back to his,she spends the night.They meet up a few more times until the day he gets nicked.Turns out she was underage.Her parents found out,notified the authorities and he gets a statutory rape charge.

In many laws in many countries,ignorance is not deemed a valid defence.

Which brings to mind an ex posters favourite saying "i can only be responsible for myself not someone else" not his exact words but near as damn it. Its true though "they didnt tell me" is no excuse for not seeking the answer yourself

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if he was mentally stable enough to book, arrive, pay for and fuck an underage girl then he is mentally stable enough to face the consequences of those actions

 

You would be right if he did know, that he had paid sex with an underage girl. But he did not know; he has been lied to, by her.

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In addition to it: Mental stability (psychiatrically healthy) has not much to do with intelligence (intellectual skills).

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You would be right if he did know, that he had paid sex with an underage girl. But he did not know; he has been lied to, by her.

ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law. As stated earlier, guys should be checking ID of younger escorts, escorts check ID of younger clients. You can easily hold your finger over the name so all someone can see is your face picture and date of birth

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In addition to it: Mental stability (psychiatrically healthy) has not much to do with intelligence (intellectual skills).

If someone makes a decision to do something then acts upon that decision willingly and of their own volitioin then they are responsible for a crime they commit. If the guy was lead or pushed  into doing it by someone else then fair enough, there is evidence that he is not able to make his own decisions therefore isnt mentaly fit to be responsible for them.

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You would be right if he did know, that he had paid sex with an underage girl. But he did not know; he has been lied to, by her.

But he did not care to know.

This is a country with a regulated system. He ignored that and chose to pay for sex in the dutch equivalent of the Wild West but it is still the Netherlands and Netherlands laws apply. Nobody in a club, brothel or wallen is checking the girls ID as part of compliance with the regulated system. So the job of giving a monkey about whether the girl in question has made an adult choice to do this falls on YOU THE PUNTER.

I can't find a decent analogy but this might be close because at one time in these islands education was unregulated. So when regulation came in, you've already got an expectation that the teachers are all right and the children will be safe. If at that time you sent your child to an unregulated school, it might very well be a good school operating outside the system but you are still GOING TO GIVE A DAMN.

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ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law. As stated earlier, guys should be checking ID of younger escorts, escorts check ID of younger clients. You can easily hold your finger over the name so all someone can see is your face picture and date of birth

 

Maybe that is true. The Minister of Security and Justice want to introduce special permits (together with the Prostitution Regulation Act*) that the WG can show to the client, who wants to check her age. On that permit are only shown her picture and her age.

 

BTW, as I wrote in the other topic, the same Minister wants to apply the Swedish model (same system as in Sweden) for sexworkers between 18 and 21 (18 and above but not yet 21 years old) and their visiting punters: being a sexworker is allowed, but punters and pimps will commit a crime.

 

For all sexworkers there will be a more strict system, but as long as they are legal, they do not commit an administrative violation (way less severe than a crime). Punters who visit them (while they are 21 years old or older), are not committing any crime.

 

* I expect the Dutch Penal Code to be adjusted as well.

Edited by hans66

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