Mr Blue

Sensible newspaper article

43 posts in this topic

Not sure if this is the correct forum but apologies to the mods if not.

There's a nice balanced article in the Independant today some might find interesting.

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It was sensible until the comment defending this action on taxation grounds. By all means prosecute any business for non-payment of tax but the issue is with the laws regards the industry and policing intervention - not HMRC. Plus many Agencies/WGs do pay taxes and could still be affected by these very grey laws.

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Yea but lets face it any business which has a cash transaction element is going to have unreported income streams happening.

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Just so there is no confusion. The police action was not as a result of not paying tax's. This action was taken following a 999 call in which a girl was faced with two burglars who at the time we believed were armed. They did not have fire arms but were both armed with telescopic battons. While helping police with thier enquiries, police decided the agency was of greater interest. The event itself was horrific, the way the police have behaved is disgusting

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2057437_police_search_for_burglars_after_armed_raid_drama

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2057324_armed_police_storm_camberley_town_centre_flat

The full story will go live in the new year to serve as a warning to others within the industry, the police re literally putting girls lives at risk. We will be campaigning against thier actions as no one and I mean no one should have to second guess themselves before dialling 999 when a girls life is in danger, the police have a lot of questions to answer, in the mean time as the new saying goes NEVER trust a man in blue!

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Yes it was just that someone put a comment below the article saying they should be prosecuted as they don't pay taxes but the article isn't really getting at that!

Anyway they seemed to have removed/stopped comments on the article now - interesting.

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Just so there is no confusion. The police action was not as a result of not paying tax's. This action was taken following a 999 call in which a girl was faced with two burglars who at the time we believed were armed. They did not have fire arms but were both armed with telescopic battons. While helping police with thier enquiries, police decided the agency was of greater interest. The event itself was horrific, the way the police have behaved is disgusting

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2057437_police_search_for_burglars_after_armed_raid_drama

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2057324_armed_police_storm_camberley_town_centre_flat

The full story will go live in the new year to serve as a warning to others within the industry, the police re literally putting girls lives at risk. We will be campaigning against thier actions as no one and I mean no one should have to second guess themselves before dialling 999 when a girls life is in danger, the police have a lot of questions to answer, in the mean time as the new saying goes NEVER trust a man in blue!

This is an absolute disgrace. So, not only are the government happy to force girls out of parlours and onto the streets, but also any aggro and they have to think twice before reporting to the police. The thugs out there must be laughing their whotsits off. Freedom to burgle/attack premises with less likelihood of reporting.

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The event itself was horrific, the way the police have behaved is disgusting.

The full story will go live in the new year to serve as a warning to others within the industry, the police re literally putting girls lives at risk.

I hope that it will be a "full" story! It would be intriguing to learn whether the attackers were simply after the heaped piles of used £20 notes that they confidently expected (had been told by a "friend") were there, or whether this was a (sadly successful) action by or on behalf of organised crime wishing to put competition out of business.

Of course neither man has been charged with anything?

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Just so there is no confusion. The police action was not as a result of not paying tax's. This action was taken following a 999 call in which a girl was faced with two burglars who at the time we believed were armed. They did not have fire arms but were both armed with telescopic battons. While helping police with thier enquiries, police decided the agency was of greater interest. The event itself was horrific, the way the police have behaved is disgusting

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2057437_police_search_for_burglars_after_armed_raid_drama

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2057324_armed_police_storm_camberley_town_centre_flat

The full story will go live in the new year to serve as a warning to others within the industry, the police re literally putting girls lives at risk. We will be campaigning against thier actions as no one and I mean no one should have to second guess themselves before dialling 999 when a girls life is in danger, the police have a lot of questions to answer, in the mean time as the new saying goes NEVER trust a man in blue!

Hi Sasha

It is good to see the additional detail you provided and I look forward to the "full story" with interest. The Independent article was good for being non-judgmental I thought, but didn't really make it clear how extreme and frightening the crime committed against you must have been (judging from the articles you posted) and how short-sighted it was of the police to concentrate on the agency rather than the violent criminals. What a rotten state of affairs.

Best of Luck.

Northwinds

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Just so there is no confusion. The police action was not as a result of not paying tax's. This action was taken following a 999 call in which a girl was faced with two burglars who at the time we believed were armed. They did not have fire arms but were both armed with telescopic battons. While helping police with thier enquiries, police decided the agency was of greater interest. The event itself was horrific, the way the police have behaved is disgusting

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2057437_police_search_for_burglars_after_armed_raid_drama

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2057324_armed_police_storm_camberley_town_centre_flat

The full story will go live in the new year to serve as a warning to others within the industry, the police re literally putting girls lives at risk. We will be campaigning against thier actions as no one and I mean no one should have to second guess themselves before dialling 999 when a girls life is in danger, the police have a lot of questions to answer, in the mean time as the new saying goes NEVER trust a man in blue!

I am appalled at the police behaviour here - they need to be investigated themselves and disciplined for their actions! Did they ever investigate the far more serious crime against you?

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This is just the start of the fight. I and I know many others do too, feel very strongly about this. Outrageous doesnt even cover what the police have done or the way they have behaved.

This was not the result of an ongoing investigation into the agency, its was shere oportunism by the police.

We were violently attacked in what was a targetted attack by a gang or competitor, a girl escaped by sheer luck after threats she would be held hostage. Despite police treating it as an agrivated burglary, no money was stolen or would have been expected at 11.30am in the morning, this was not the attackers motive!

Police have yet to take statements from all the witness's, including myself some 3 months later, advising me that unless they had someone to arrest and charge with the offense our statements were not required, despite the fact that our statements could help catch these thugs. I should state that they have requested statements but have yet to offer assurance that any statements we make will not be used against us now or in the future. They have yet to make any arrests and there is no information to be found on the Surrey Police website about the crime, no scetch of the attackers has been taken despite two key eye witness's. The police have made thier priorities clear.

We have made a formal complaint to the IPCC although that investigation will not start until the police investigation has ended, and will be petitioning downsing street for government assurances; the police and government tell us the safety of the girls is thier priority, although have clearly shown that not to be the case. Need the government be reminded of the ipswich murders or more recently the murder of a working girl in Brighton.

As I have already said, no one should have to second guess thier decision to dial 999, its an emergency service and we should not be disriminated against because of the industry in which we opperate. We will be seeking assurance from government that should anyone from within the indistry require the assistance of the police in light of an attack, burglary or other such crimes, they will be offered amnesty and will not themselves become the subject of investigation or prosecution by the police. The message the police send to orgonised criminals is shocking and has long term implications for everyone working within the industry.

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I'm sure that every punter on here as well as (especially) girls/agency/parlour owners will give you every support possible. The Police have given criminals carte blanche to attack sex workers throughout the country!

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I read this thread and some of the posts on here with a degree of incredulity. Whilst not entirely doubting what Sasha has told us, it is her interpretation of events and we have no knowledge of the direction police investigations are taking. I recall that it was Sasha who had all her earlier posts removed after the incident and, presumably at her behest, the mods then imposed a blanket ban on any discussions of the Cloud Nine affair. Until today that is.

As frightening as the assault undoubtedly was - and as Irgendeiner observes and Sasha herself implies this has all the hallmarks of an internecine dispute - if the police have cause to believe that other criminal offences were also being committed then there is a degree of justification to their action. The Independent article states that we have "sex workers who are estimated to earn £1bn a year in untaxed revenues" and, mainly through the internet, this industry is burgeoning and minister want to see it reined in. If so then action is both inevitable and desirable.

Even well-known agencies have had their wrists slapped in the past for avoiding tax and I certainly know of at least one other agency which was closed down because of tax evasion. So let's not get our knickers in a twist until we hear the full story.

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Not get our knickers in a twist? I will have you know I pay my tax's and take any suggestion that I dont as a direct insult, tax had NOTHING to do with our case. As unique as we may be Cloud 9 was a legitimate business and was run as such.

Yes I requested the moderators remove my posts from the forum but I did not request a blanket ban on the discussion of the subject. I believe this ban was put in place to stop speculation which of course is appreciated but was not requested.

What the police did is totally unjustified, let alone illegal and if it comes to it we will fight the police in court with every ounce of strength in our bodies, they have abused thier powers in more ways that one.

I think your right, you should wait until you hear the full story, the assurances we were given by the police which subsequently meant nothing because they were not from senior enough officers, the way we were mislead and decieved, let alone the sick fact that the police appear to be failing miserably at any attempt to catch the violent criminals involved in the attack or even showing an interest in doing so.

We turned to the police for help because one of the girls was in direct danger, we had no warning of the attack and until the day no threats had been made, there was NO provocation for the attack. Similarly when your offered assurances and told the police are concerned for greater public safety and that you should co operate in any way you can, it doesnt cross your mind that you should in fact be getting that assurance in writing from a senior officer. The arresting officer even felt it necesary to apologies to me prior to checking me into custody, I would testify to that fact in court under oath and on my childrens lives. What the police have done isnt just wrong its an assult on the rights and safety of girls up and down the country.

The last few months have been hugely stressfull, its taken a great deal of time to adjust and come to terms with what has happened. Now I feel its important everyone become aware of what has happened, how the police have behaved, thier methods and abuse of power so it can serve as a warning to everyone within the industry.

Are you seriously suggesting girls should think twice before dialling 999 when in danger because they might not pay enough tax?

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I thought HMRC generally went in completely seperately to the police?

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They do. They are independent orgonisations. The police make thier money from procedes of crime. Tax investigations and police investigations are two very different things

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I thought so and it's the line mentioning unpaid taxes in the sex industry that has now digressed from the whole point of the article. Gotten up a little hatred (as was expressed in the comments placed on the news website initially).

There are other groups out there who evade taxes but it seems to be us who take the blame. If a builder was attacked or had an accident at work due to lax safety laws/standards would non payment of tax by people in their profession be mentioned?

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If a builder was attacked or had an accident at work due to lax safety laws/standards would non payment of tax by people in their profession be mentioned?

I doubt it. There's a bit of moral crusade here, mixed in with greed to pick up the 50% from 'proceeds of crime'. They're picking on prostitutes because they believe that no-one will stand up for them. As you say, they wouldn't do it with a builder/shopkeeper/hairdresser! :D

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I'm glad to hear you do pay your taxes, Sasha, and I wasn't implying YOU didn't, merely responding to one of the directions taken by the newspaper article. However, the article does imply that the police decided to look into the activities of the agency, and if there is an element of, for example, organised crime involvement then surely the women will be safer away from that environment?

I am bemused by the claim in the article that prostitutes, having been denied the services of your agency, are now "being forced on to the streets or into brothels where they are at risk of violence and exploitation." So there's no other alternative for them? Perhaps they should talk to some of the truly independent ladies on this board who organise all aspects of their profession themselves and don't appear to me to be at undue risk of violence and exploitation.

The article further claims that one of your ladies - a Sienna, 26 - "…….has been forced to sell sex in London….." Now, if true, that IS alarming and will be music to the ears of the supporters of Part 2 of the new Policing and Crime Act.

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I am bemused by the claim in the article that prostitutes, having been denied the services of your agency, are now "being forced on to the streets or into brothels where they are at risk of violence and exploitation." So there's no other alternative for them? Perhaps they should talk to some of the truly independent ladies on this board who organise all aspects of their profession themselves and don't appear to me to be at undue risk of violence and exploitation.

The article further claims that one of your ladies - a Sienna, 26 - "…….has been forced to sell sex in London….." Now, if true, that IS alarming and will be music to the ears of the supporters of Part 2 of the new Policing and Crime Act.

You seem to miss the point that this is about safety, weather a girl works alone or for an agency she is potentially at risk and more so as an independent if working entirely alone. Before you make claims about the experiences of independent escorts I should advise you I was one for many years before starting an agency so Im not without experience in this field.

This is a potentially dangerous industry to work in and those within it should be able to turn to the police for help without fear of arrest, investigation or prosecusion. I take it you missed the recent news of the independent escort murdered in Brighton?

Dont take me the wrong way, I full heartedly support the police in thier attempts to eliminate coersion or traficking and in the fight agianst orgonised crime as Im sure we all do, having said that thier behavior and actions do nothing to stem these crimes only fuel them further by pushing them underground and fueling the vulnerability of those working inocently within the industry.

What Im against is police tactics which when put into effect actually put girls at greater risk instead of protecting them. There is a very big difference as I discovered in what the police "say" and what they infact "do" and more often than not trafficking is used as an entry point for prosecution when in fact this is never proven and was never the case. Before more confusion enters, this was NOT the case with Cloud 9, traficking or coersion was never suggested.

The safety of the girls should always come first, its what the government and even our dear HH campaign for, yet in our case we were persocuted for protecting the safety of one of the girls we worked with. If anyone has a greater suggestion of what we should have done when we recieved a call from a girl telling us thier were two armed men in the apartment downsing the property in petrol? Any human being with a consciounce would dial 999. The message the police very clearly send is that you shouldnt in fact be calling on them, which quite frankly is frightening.

In our case the police used thier interest to catch these dangerous criminals into coersing information from us that they told us would not be used against us. I sought assurance from the officer before providing any information and was given it, yet within minutes and I literally mean minutes, I was arrested and the raids began. In my opinion this was pre meditated, they must have had officers ready to raid in order to react as quickly as they did. It took less time for them to raid various premesis accross surrey than it did to respond to a 999 call in which it was believed fire arms were involved. Since, they have failed to follow up on the agrevated burglary, failed to take statements from key witness's or even speak with one witness, in my opinion and that is all it is, making thier priorities clear.

They have however visited two known local establishments to check on the safety of the girls?

My only mistake was in trusting the police and believing thier lies. They saw an opportunity and took it, god forbid they might ever have to do any real policing work catching serious and violent criminals. They saw an opportunity to boost thier figures with no thought to the safety of women working within the industry.

We should all have the right to dial 999 in an emergency. I voluntarily went to help police with thier investigation, I encouraged both key witness's to return and make statements in order to help the police, I think my priority in helping police catch violent criminals was obvious. The police offered assurances they later went back on and as far as Im concerned everyone should be made aware of thier actions and tactics so it serves a warning to others working within the industry that you cannot rely on the police for protection. I will personally fight them with every ounce of strengh I have to ensure those within the industry have the right to put safety first.

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the police like to pick on soft targets especially where there is a nice little earner in it for them,the new brothel closure laws will be seen by the police as a potential gold mine.

we have to remember how corrupt the police can be with all the miscarriages of justice & more recently the attempted cover up of the shooting dead of jean charles menezes, a cover up that involved senior officers

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Most people are of the mistaken view that the police are there to serve and protect the public, when in fact they are there to do the bidding of government. Occasionally they catch a burglar or something to give the impression of being on the side of the masses.

Awful story this is, but not particularly shocking. The mistake you made was to trust the police, but 'the police' is no more than a group of largely thuggish and power hungry individuals in uniforms, pretty much the last people you should be trusting.

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The safety of the girls should always come first, its what the government and even our dear HH campaign for

If you truly think that then IMHO you are living in a fools paradise, I have yet to see a single action that even hints at the safety of prostitutes let alone have any form of priority. As far as I can make out the overriding objectives are the prosecution of punters, the sweeping prostitution under the carpet and the eventual eradication, no matter how that may be achieved, of prostitution, none of those have the safety of prostitutes as a target, in fact I will go so far as to say that they are, by design or accident, going to have quite the reverse effect. What you see is a crusade, and history shows that crusades have a tendency to ignore any side effects.

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eh, so here we are lamenting the crusade again ...

Most of the armies that went on the original crusades didnt come back, but they did a lot of damage in the process.

(just kidding, bad tase I have ...)

The police is unfortunately guided by "targets" and some sensible person will have to point out (keep pointing out) the Law risks turning into a bully-machine. Not much different from organised crime then.

Dire need for better political guidance.

(Gosh do I wish I could educate the masses properly, or take away the votes from the Idiots)

As for the business of good company:

Those of us seeing regular, above-board indies or even reliable-agency Ladies have not much to fear (yet). Allthough we should be careful!

But on a positive note, the OP did point out a very sensible article in the Indie. That is the sort of publicity we should at least be encourageing !

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Dire need for better political guidance.

I believe that political guidance is exactly what they are getting, whether or not it is better political guidance rather depends upon your viewpoint.

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You make a convincing case, Sasha, and with such passion that I truly believe your sincerity. You say this is a potentially dangerous industry - undeniably true, and I bow to your experiences as someone having worked at the sharp end. But my experience with the many escorts I've got to know over the years indicates hardly any examples of real violence against or danger to them and, in any event, I don't see how working through an on-line agency such as yours was, enhances their protection.

I presume by the Brighton murder you are referring to the case of Andrea Waddell last October? These cases, whilst distressing, are relatively rare even within the prostitution industry, and there are overtones relating to Waddell's sexuality which might have exacerbated matters in that instance.

What I don't see is how the police tactics in your case have put those girls at greater risk. The police appear to have responded promptly to the threat they were presented with, and your concern is their subsequent heavy-handed tactics and, maybe, a hidden agenda. That concern may well be justified and I'm sure we all await the outcome of your battle with the Surrey Police with interest.

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