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Bert

Is This Rape ? Sex On Trial

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I don't want to sound too chauvinist or controversial but it seems that the definition of "rape" has extended recently to include "consented sex that I later regret"

 

You can probably also thank our friends the rad-fems for that one.

 

Only a bloke with rocks for brains would now get involved with a one night stand. It only takes one boozed up bint to decide she really didn't want to sleep with you after all.

 

They're now running these "consent classes" to make men feel guilty into attending, the purpose of which is to really make sure that they know when a woman wants sex or not, and also encourage women to reject men's advances.

 

My general guide for consent is if I get away with kissing her without her slapping me, then I'm heading in the right direction. Then later on if she's conscious and lying on her back on your bed with her legs apart and knickers nowhere in sight, happily waiting to receive you, then I'm pretty certain that's consent.

 

People who do commit actual rapes know full well that their victim isn't consenting. Rad-fems are interested in the 'grey area' situations (I mean: involving alcohol/drugs or husband/wife scenarios) where they can get more men and their evil cocks prosecuted.

 

Sorry if anyone is offended- I just think that's the truth of it, that's all.

Edited by FantasyLover

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I didn't watch all of it as I went out, what surprised me was the comments on Twitter about the show. One guy said "Girls shouldn't wear short skirts as its provoking guys to want to sleep with them, they should cover up to prevent being raped" something similar to that.

Outraged me so much, how can a woman who dresses in a short skirt be blamed for being raped?! This isn't the first time I've come across someone who thinks like this either and it's really shocking.

Girls who later regret sleeping with someone an report it as rape when they already consented are scum. Regretting sex later on down the line is very different to not consenting at all and being forced into it.

Edited by TightYoungEbony

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I didn't watch it, but it's such a touchy subject... I have some sympathies for those women (who are always shouted down) who believe there's a difference (in terms of impact on the victim) between a violent, stranger rape, and one in which the woman has put herself in a compromising situation (i.e. getting bladdered and going back to a man's flat with him). That said, it is still rape if it's obvious consent hasn't been given. 

 

FantasyLover - I don't see that a husband raping his wife (or boyfriend his girlfriend etc.) is ever a grey area though. A wedding licence doesn't give a man carte blanche to have sex with his wife whenever he feels like it.

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I am designing small cards intended for clients to present to escorts just before the payment is handed over, with a request that this consent form should be signed and returned immediately, and then the cash is surrendered and the fun begins.

 

Do you think that there will be a market for such a product?

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I am designing small cards intended for clients to present to escorts just before the payment is handed over, with a request that this consent form should be signed and returned immediately, and then the cash is surrendered and the fun begins.

Do you think that there will be a market for such a product?

Nope

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*sighs*

barking up the wrong tree with escorts pabs, we wont be accusing you of rape after the fact because we want you to come back and be a regular.

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*sigh*

 

Typical male reaction. This is why there is a need to educate men about consent. 

 

I personally don't believe unenthusiastic going along with it is rape, but it would be great if men realised how horrible it is when they go on and on about having sex, prodding, pawing, begging and then you agree just to shut them up. I've been there in the past and so have many of my female friends. 

 

And also, it is actually against the law to have sex with someone who is too drunk or high to make a sensible decision whether to have sex or not. 

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I didn't watch it, but it's such a touchy subject... I have some sympathies for those women (who are always shouted down) who believe there's a difference (in terms of impact on the victim) between a violent, stranger rape, and one in which the woman has put herself in a compromising situation (i.e. getting bladdered and going back to a man's flat with him). That said, it is still rape if it's obvious consent hasn't been given. 

 

FantasyLover - I don't see that a husband raping his wife (or boyfriend his girlfriend etc.) is ever a grey area though. A wedding licence doesn't give a man carte blanche to have sex with his wife whenever he feels like it.

 

There is, indeed, a difference. The trouble is (legal experts, correct me if I'm wrong) our vocabulary in this area seems to be rather limited and unsophisticated. Rape is being asked to cover too many different types of situation. I'd like to see a much wider terminology that would reflect the varying degrees of gravity of what took place (or didn't, of course).

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There is coercion, sexual assault, and no doubt quite a few more. "Rape" sounds better in a newspaper headline, though. Journalists want to sell newspapers, not get snarled up in legal or linguistic subtleties, so they use the most sensationalist language possible.

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There is coercion, sexual assault, and no doubt quite a few more. "Rape" sounds better in a newspaper headline, though. Journalists want to sell newspapers, not get snarled up in legal or linguistic subtleties, so they use the most sensationalist language possible.

 

I was thinking in the other direction really - things that would make the penalty more severe. We need terms that will define the most serious kinds of violation. Anal rape, for example, seems to me more serious, as the act itself might be repugnant to the woman, quite apart from the circumstances in which it is happening. The introduction of foreign objects - bottles, for example - should make it more serious. I know feminists object to a woman's sexual history being introduced in court, but it should certainly be more serious if the woman is a virgin as she has no context of sexual experience in which to place what is happening to her. Or are all these aspects already accounted for in sentencing policy?

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*sigh*

 

Typical male reaction. This is why there is a need to educate men about consent. 

 

I personally don't believe unenthusiastic going along with it is rape, but it would be great if men realised how horrible it is when they go on and on about having sex, prodding, pawing, begging and then you agree just to shut them up. I've been there in the past and so have many of my female friends.

 

And also, it is actually against the law to have sex with someone who is too drunk or high to make a sensible decision whether to have sex or not. 

 

On your final point- quite- I understand that. Look above. That's why I said any man who'd risk a one night stand these days where alcohol/drugs is involved, has rocks for brains.

 

Whenever controversial topics come up like this I always wish people would read a point of view properly, rather than jumping to assume what they thought you meant, or what they think men in general mean.

 

I've never had a one night stand or pressured a woman for sex who was unwilling. Pushy or downright evil blokes trying to force sexual activity should be prosecuted for assault/ rape, no argument with that.

 

The grey areas come in when the bloke involved has also drank a lot of alcohol or taken drugs. That's where I'm saying the rad-fems always want to apportion blame to the man and prosecute, even though his judgement has also been impaired. That's my point- I am sorry that in my original post I perhaps didn't make that point clear enough.

 

I also want to make it clear that the 'grey areas' in the marriage situation don't mean that I approve of domestic violence or sexual assault in a marriage- I meant a grey area in terms of difficulty of prosecuting, proving etc.

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This is why there is a need to educate men about consent. 

 

I've managed to get to 42 years of age without committing or being accused of a sexual assault or a rape - touch wood- I can keep my run going without a consent class.

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On your final point- quite- I understand that. Look above. That's why I said any man who'd risk a one night stand these days where alcohol/drugs is involved, has rocks for brains.

 

Whenever controversial topics come up like this I always wish people would read a point of view properly, rather than jumping to assume what they thought you meant, or what they think men in general mean.

 

I've never had a one night stand or pressured a woman for sex who was unwilling. Pushy or downright evil blokes trying to force sexual activity should be prosecuted for assault/ rape, no argument with that.

 

The grey areas come in when the bloke involved has also drank a lot of alcohol or taken drugs. That's where I'm saying the rad-fems always want to apportion blame to the man and prosecute, even though his judgement has also been impaired. That's my point- I am sorry that in my original post I perhaps didn't make that point clear enough.

 

I also want to make it clear that the 'grey areas' in the marriage situation don't mean that I approve of domestic violence or sexual assault in a marriage- I meant a grey area in terms of difficulty of prosecuting, proving etc.

 

I did read your point of view, you assume I didn't. 

There is an irony isn't there?!

 

Your post is nothing but defensive and critical of the idea of consent or at least the concept of educating men in consent. This issue is not about rad-fems at all and it's fairly typical of man to 'blame' rad -fems' for something they can't accept as something that actually a lot of women who don't identify as feminists, radical or otherwise have had a problem with.

 

Just because you personally aren't pushy when it comes to sex or have had a one night stand it doesn't mean the situation I described doesn't happen. Just because YOU don't drink and drive (for example) do you think that it shouldn't be illegal to drive whilst drinking or that people should be educated as to why it's a bad idea?

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On your final point- quite- I understand that. Look above. That's why I said any man who'd risk a one night stand these days where alcohol/drugs is involved, has rocks for brains.

 

Whenever controversial topics come up like this I always wish people would read a point of view properly, rather than jumping to assume what they thought you meant, or what they think men in general mean.

 

I've never had a one night stand or pressured a woman for sex who was unwilling. Pushy or downright evil blokes trying to force sexual activity should be prosecuted for assault/ rape, no argument with that.

 

The grey areas come in when the bloke involved has also drank a lot of alcohol or taken drugs. That's where I'm saying the rad-fems always want to apportion blame to the man and prosecute, even though his judgement has also been impaired. That's my point- I am sorry that in my original post I perhaps didn't make that point clear enough.

 

I also want to make it clear that the 'grey areas' in the marriage situation don't mean that I approve of domestic violence or sexual assault in a marriage- I meant a grey area in terms of difficulty of prosecuting, proving etc.

 

I've never pressured a woman either, but, looking back to when I was young, I can remember one occasion when my girlfriend was cheesed off after a session, because she felt I'd taken her consent for granted and could just roll over on top when I felt like it, when we were in bed together. I think it was the kind of situation Lydia was thinking of in her first post: my girlfriend didn't deny consent, because consent was just assumed, I was probably randy (28 years old) and assumed she would be randy too, or just be willing to take off the edge of my randiness if she wasn't. It's what women usually call bad sex.

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*sigh*

 

Typical male reaction. This is why there is a need to educate men about consent. 

 

I personally don't believe unenthusiastic going along with it is rape, but it would be great if men realised how horrible it is when they go on and on about having sex, prodding, pawing, begging and then you agree just to shut them up. I've been there in the past and so have many of my female friends. 

 

And also, it is actually against the law to have sex with someone who is too drunk or high to make a sensible decision whether to have sex or not. 

I found the programme very interesting.What i found most so was after the first film the amount of women who decided it wasn't rape as opposed to men.Even after the final film was played which made things pretty clear cut some of the women were still aportioning blame to the "victim" in the film.To me personally,the film was a pretty clear cut case,they didn't go too far into maing things blurry with the guy coming across as pretty pushy and more than a little creepy. do feel some of the kids however may not quite understand the effect of alcohol on your system and that state where youve had a skinful,gone to sleep,get woken and youre in that zombie state where your kind of awake but still a chunk out of it.

It was good they had the barrister explain to them exactly how the situation shown constituted rape.What i did find worrying was the amont that said that even though they thought it was rape,it wasnt a "bad" rape and he shouldnt be punished as he seemd a nice guy/was young etc.Where and at what crime would that attitude dissappear

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Just because you personally aren't pushy when it comes to sex or have had a one night stand it doesn't mean the situation I described doesn't happen. Just because YOU don't drink and drive (for example) do you think that it shouldn't be illegal to drive whilst drinking or that people should be educated as to why it's a bad idea?

 

Nothing to do with me personally.

 

My view is that I think a rapist or sex attacker knows exactly what they are doing and consent 'education' makes no difference whatsoever.

 

My caveat to this is that I think there is a grey area where alcohol or drugs are involved in sexual situations/one night stands whatever it may be, and a bloke's judgement is impaired just as a woman's is, and then it comes down to a legal definition of what kind of crime has been committed. That's where the rad-fems come in with their point of view- prosecute the man. The comparison you make with drink-driving doesn't work. for me.

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Nothing to do with me personally.

 

My view is that I think a rapist or sex attacker knows exactly what they are doing and consent 'education' makes no difference whatsoever.

 

My caveat to this is that I think there is a grey area where alcohol or drugs are involved in sexual situations/one night stands whatever it may be, and a bloke's judgement is impaired just as a woman's is, and then it comes down to a legal definition of what kind of crime has been committed. That's where the rad-fems come in with their point of view- prosecute the man. The comparison you make with drink-driving doesn't work. for me.

 

I think it's only recently that men have started to take this seriously.

I remember years ago, when I was working in a hospital, one of my fellow porters regaling me with a story from his wartime days. He and a group of friends had got a WAAF absolutely pissed and she'd been shagged senseless by all of them. He didn't tell it as if he was proud of it, exactly (but certainly not as if he was ashamed). It was partly along the lines of "This is how things were in the war", but also, partly, "And this is how blokes behave when they can get away with it". He certainly didn't see it as anything that needed aologizing for, either then or at the time.

I was a wet-behind-the-ears 19-year-old and just drank in the story as more information about how the grown-ups behave. It didn't make me uncomfortable, though I didn't feel any desire to emulate it. But it certainly didn't make me feel indignant either.

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Nothing to do with me personally.

 

My view is that I think a rapist or sex attacker knows exactly what they are doing and consent 'education' makes no difference whatsoever.

 

My caveat to this is that I think there is a grey area where alcohol or drugs are involved in sexual situations/one night stands whatever it may be, and a bloke's judgement is impaired just as a woman's is, and then it comes down to a legal definition of what kind of crime has been committed. That's where the rad-fems come in with their point of view- prosecute the man. The comparison you make with drink-driving doesn't work. for me.

Just curious.Do you feel the same with other crimes,say assault or with a killing?I'm asking as booze and drugs are often used by a defence team in a multitude of other crimes

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There's a level of culpability isn't there, which applies to the legal definition. As with a killing, it can be the difference between a cold-blooded murder and manslaughter etc.

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I think it's only recently that men have started to take this seriously.

I remember years ago, when I was working in a hospital, one of my fellow porters regaling me with a story from his wartime days. He and a group of friends had got a WAAF absolutely pissed and she'd been shagged senseless by all of them. He didn't tell it as if he was proud of it, exactly (but certainly not as if he was ashamed). It was partly along the lines of "This is how things were in the war", but also, partly, "And this is how blokes behave when they can get away with it". He certainly didn't see it as anything that needed aologizing for, either then or at the time.

I was a wet-behind-the-ears 19-year-old and just drank in the story as more information about how the grown-ups behave. It didn't make me uncomfortable, though I didn't feel any desire to emulate it. But it certainly didn't make me feel indignant either.

 

There certainlty has been a change of attitudes in recent years - as a junior sales engineer in the 70's we had great sport walking through the typing pool attempting to unfasten the girls bras with one hand while they were busily typing away. Some loved it, others scurried away to the ladies room to tidy themselves up. Another favourite was the 'private and confidential' ink-stamp which they got stamped with - anywhere from their legs, thighs or bare arse depending on  how game they were. Can you imagine that nowadays ?  Back then the whole sales department would have been down the road.. plus some of the girls for their similar antics !!

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Bert do you think looking back at it, that some of those women would regret what happened and feel they'd been violated and humiliated, or do you think they'd regard it as harmless fun and all good-natured? (I mean the cheeky stuff you describe there, which would now be classified as sexual assault. Not referring to anything like rape)

 

I think there's been a general cultural shift since, where women are encouraged to treat men with suspicion and hostility- and despite MinxyLydia rebuking me, I'm sorry but I do put that down to the feminist movement and rad-fems.

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I think the cultural shift is that women nowadays don't feel that they have to sit and pretend they are enjoying the 'banter' of male colleagues undoing their bras or stamping their arses.Given that at around the same time women got paid less for the same type of job as a male counterpart they were also more disposable if they rocked the boat in terms of complaining about harassment.This included the late 90's when as a trainee nurse I had to endure the 'banter' of a senior male nurse constantly making crude references and poking and prodding me.He was known as the ward clown and was much liked or feared depending and when I complained to him he laughed it off when I took it to the ward manager (also male) I was more or less told he's only having a joke.I later found out he had been moved from several departments for his behaviour.

The bottom line is when the other person is not laughing its no longer a joke.And maybe just maybe the girls in the typing pool who did laugh maybe figured it's better to laugh it off while gritting their teeth and getting on with their jobs.I doubt anyone these days would do these kinds of things as culturally its not something that's ok to do as a thing 'us guys always do' in the office.That's not really radfems its just common sense and societal evolution.

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I doubt anyone these days would do these kinds of things as culturally its not something that's ok to do as a thing 'us guys always do' in the office.That's not really radfems its just common sense and societal evolution.

 

Well no, it would be classed as sexual assault and you could go to the police if you wished to. But does every woman resent that kind of behaviour- or do some women enjoy it? Has this gone on in the past and been widespread because previously women weren't as bothered by it, yet now cultural pressure generated by the feminist movement means they consider it a violation and it's harassment? I mean I don't know in terms of what women think, I just left it out there as an open question really. I know what feminists think.

 

I refer you to controversial comments Joanna Lumley made about this issue: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/being-patted-on-the-bottom-is-not-assault-says-joanna-lumley-9273054.html

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