smiths

Bonds And What to Do?

228 posts in this topic

On a thread called Girls Under Attack i have learned of a practice called Bonds in the last couple of days, whereby a lady, often Asian apparently comes from her home country to here by having her travel costs and perhaps other costs paid by an Agency and perhaps others who she agrees to work for as a Prostitute till the bond is paid off.

I spoke to Crimestoppers about this and they told me this is Trafficking and its irrelevant if the lady agrees to it. They also said it isnt always done with her agreement and how would i know for sure either way.

A poster on this thread who i have no reason to doubt but dont know, so have no way of knowing for sure is telling the truth (no offence meant) posted that there are consequences for the lady and possibly her family if the bond isnt paid. So in my eyes she may of been willing to enter into the bond but she is effectively a sex slave for the Agency/controller till its paid off. If she had an accident or got ill and was unable to work for a long period i wonder what would be the consequences.

What do others think of this practice? As the lady and/or her family may face these consequences i can clearly see why they wouldnt want to go to the police or other authorities. Assuming this is the case with many of these ladies, what can or should be done to help them in your view?

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That's the question. I can't see a straight answer either. But maybe, in the long term, the resolution lie with us, punters. Would bonds and trafficking exist without the existing 'oriental market'? Isn't this also an outcome of the price-driven rationale? If 'we' want 'cheap punts' isn't bondage one way of agents/suppliers/pimps securing and providing WGs at a very 'competitive' rate?

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That's the question. I can't see a straight answer either. But maybe, in the long term, the resolution lie with us, punters. Would bonds and trafficking exist without the existing 'oriental market'? Isn't this also an outcome of the price-driven rationale? If 'we' want 'cheap punts' isn't bondage one way of agents/suppliers/pimps securing and providing WGs at a very 'competitive' rate?

Just wait until Marco Polo reads this.

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What planet have you been on? This subject is well known well discussed and was the reason for the sudden closure of the 2 best agencies running oriental girls about 21/2 years ago. Wake up man

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Most of the pickers that prepare food for the supermarkets have come here on a bond.

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What planet have you been on? This subject is well known well discussed and was the reason for the sudden closure of the 2 best agencies running oriental girls about 21/2 years ago. Wake up man

It is a perfectly valid subject for discussion and I am unconvinced that it has been discussed to death. On the other thread, Sasfan at his crypical worst asks whether one of the girls regards bonds as unenforceable because they are associated with prostitution. (Sasfan could have explained why they are unenforceable...). There are probably three reasons, contrary to public policy...effectively pimping (illegal whereas prostitution, per se, is not) and associated with illegal visa procurement. If the bond is unenforceable anyway, what's the problem?

Although legally unenforceable in the UK, in practice they must be enforced somehow (otherwise why does the practice proliferate). The answer is that the debt is "enforced" in the girl's home country by informal, often criminal means.

Because the contract is enforced "informally", the terms can keep changing. Interest and other costs are simply added on etc...and the girl becomes a complete slave.

The UK policy of deporting the victims of trafficking simply plays into the hands of the traffickers because the girls will not give evidence against them and if/when a girl is deported the traffickers can "enforce" any default on the bond (pour encourager les autres).

Jack

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What planet have you been on? This subject is well known well discussed and was the reason for the sudden closure of the 2 best agencies running oriental girls about 21/2 years ago. Wake up man

It wasnt well known to me. Two and a half years ago i wasnt a member here.

I note you say the 2 best Agencies, they sound great, with sex slaves available paying off their Bonds. I really missed out there, not. These ladies are Trafficked willingly or not with consequences if they dont pay off the Bond. I dont want to punt with ladies in that position personally.

In my view the more that are aware of this practice on here the better.

As to waking up man i have to this subject which is why i opened a thread about it.

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I don't think a girl who has willingly taken out a bond counts as trafficked under the Palermo Protocols, whatever Crimestoppers may have said to Smiths. That said she is extremely vulnerable to being exploited, both because of the debt, which may prove harder to clear than the original terms indicate and because she is almost certainly here as an illegal worker. These are good reasons to avoid oriental agency girls, in my opinion.

Nevertheless, we are short on facts and should be careful.......... How many girls are here under these terms? What is the size of the typical bond? Are its terms honest-----i.e. can the girl pay it off or does it inflate? What happens to girls who have paid off their bonds? Do Singapore and Japan avoid these aspects by offering short term 'entertainer' visas?

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On the other thread, Sasfan at his crypical worst asks whether one of the girls regards bonds as unenforceable because they are associated with prostitution.

The reason for my enquiry was to find out the thinking and reasoning behind the statement rather than the statement itself, I'm afraid I have this somewhat annoying habit of wanting to know details.

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I don't think a girl who has willingly taken out a bond counts as trafficked under the Palermo Protocols, whatever Crimestoppers may have said to Smiths. That said she is extremely vulnerable to being exploited, both because of the debt, which may prove harder to clear than the original terms indicate and because she is almost certainly here as an illegal worker. These are good reasons to avoid oriental agency girls, in my opinion.

Nevertheless, we are short on facts and should be careful.......... How many girls are here under these terms? What is the size of the typical bond? Are its terms honest-----i.e. can the girl pay it off or does it inflate? What happens to girls who have paid off their bonds? Do Singapore and Japan avoid these aspects by offering short term 'entertainer' visas?

On the Defining Trafficking thread i note some posters said if the lady cannot change her mind about being subject to a Bond they believe it is Trafficking. As Crimestoppers said how would i know either way anyway if she was willing or not. As a check i have rang Crimestoppers again and they say the same, it is Trafficking if you facilitate a lady getting here for the purpose of her paying a Bond off by working as a Prostitute for you or others whether she is willing or not.

If both people at CS i spoke to are wrong i would be surprised as both knew about this practice, but you never know.

I am certainly short on facts, hence the thread, but as well as your questions i am also concerned what happens when the lady cant pay the Bond if she cant work for a long time due to accident or illness or simply doesnt want to continue to be a Prostitute, and the possible consequences for her and/or her family if this occurs.

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Just wait until Marco Polo reads this.

Well, I've read it. And your expectation is?

I already stated elsewhere that I do not, and never have, used agencies, thus to the best of my knowledge I have never encountered a currently debt-bonded girl. I have, however, met girls who are now fully independent but initially arrived in the UK via the bond method. As has been outlined many times on these boards and elsewhere, the majority of the girls who come here that way are perfectly OK about it and know very well what they are getting into.

Of course I have every concern for girls who, for whatever reason, become unable or unwilling to pay off their bond. How individual agencies deal with that sort of situation is beyond my personal knowledge, but the very many posters on here who do use these agencies are the ones you should be asking and the ones who should be replying here.

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That's the question. I can't see a straight answer either. But maybe, in the long term, the resolution lie with us, punters. Would bonds and trafficking exist without the existing 'oriental market'? Isn't this also an outcome of the price-driven rationale? If 'we' want 'cheap punts' isn't bondage one way of agents/suppliers/pimps securing and providing WGs at a very 'competitive' rate?

Except that the bonded agency girls are not "cheap punts", they all come in at £150 p/h, sometimes £200, standard central London rates and more expensive than many Euro girls.

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Well, I've read it. And your expectation is?

I already stated elsewhere that I do not, and never have, used agencies, thus to the best of my knowledge I have never encountered a currently debt-bonded girl. I have, however, met girls who are now fully independent but initially arrived in the UK via the bond method. As has been outlined many times on these boards and elsewhere, the majority of the girls who come here that way are perfectly OK about it and know very well what they are getting into.

Of course I have every concern for girls who, for whatever reason, become unable or unwilling to pay off their bond. How individual agencies deal with that sort of situation is beyond my personal knowledge, but the very many posters on here who do use these agencies are the ones you should be asking and the ones who should be replying here.

Amen. :):(

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On the Defining Trafficking thread i note some posters said if the lady cannot change her mind about being subject to a Bond they believe it is Trafficking. As Crimestoppers said how would i know either way anyway if she was willing or not. As a check i have rang Crimestoppers again and they say the same, it is Trafficking if you facilitate a lady getting here for the purpose of her paying a Bond off by working as a Prostitute for you or others whether she is willing or not.

If both people at CS i spoke to are wrong i would be surprised as both knew about this practice, but you never know.

I am certainly short on facts, hence the thread, but as well as your questions i am also concerned what happens when the lady cant pay the Bond if she cant work for a long time due to accident or illness or simply doesnt want to continue to be a Prostitute, and the possible consequences for her and/or her family if this occurs.

As far as I can make out, and I have to admit that is not very far because I have yet to get my head around the "Trafficking" laws, the question of whether or not the subject of a bond has been willingly or unwillingly "Trafficked" is completely irrelevant, also whether or not the "Trafficking" is for the purposes of sexual exploitation is also completely irrelevant, and I say this because logically if the subject arrives unwillingly in this country then he/she has been kidnapped/abducted and the reason for him/her being kidnapped/abducted is of no real interest, therefore logic dictates that the "Trafficking" laws can only relate to those subjects who have not been kidnapped/abducted, that is that they arrive in this country willingly.

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A couple of points here, and I'm trying to be as dispassionate as possible here so it may come out a little cold and factual.

1/ Most of the asian girls who come over here, are seasoned professionals back in their home countires, so they know what the work involves, indeed working here can actually be more pleasant for some of them. That said they can still be naive and conned

2/They are out to make as much money as they can send it back home, support parents, children, buy a farm. My friend has a child, who is now weel looked after due to money from here, in addition she has just bought a building plot and is now saving money to build a house. She is not that unusual amongst the girls who come over.

3/They can't afford the travel/ have difficulty getting a visa to come here, so they talk to someone to arrange it for them. They then agree to a contract with the arranger saying for example the first 150 punters will be used to pay off the debt.

4/This debt/bond is not legally enforceable, but remember the arranger isn't doing things legally and they're not here legally. they are enofrced in other ways. At simplest their passport is confiscated at worst sever menaces is used.

5/ It is not unknown for an arranger to exagerate the earning potential/ neglect to mention costs, when agreeign the contract with the girl. My friend told me of one girl who had been told she would earn £70k for a yeat over here. she was very dissapointed at the end of the year to go home with only a tenth of that due to deductions like agency fees/ debt repayment/ rent and other living expenses/ even the false passport to go home.

6/At the end of the contract, what happens depends on the arranger, in the case of asian selection they are free to work elsewhere, however pressure is put on them to agree to prioritise AS bookings over all others, to the extent of cancelling/cutting short bookings form elsewhere. As for the ones who come to work in massage parlours I can't say but imagine it to be simialr or worse.

7/ This is not done to supply the cheap end of the market, some of the bonded girls are too expensive for Jimmiredcab(not that that says much) so don't think higher price means you're ok.

8/This type of consensual trafficking may not be trafficking in terms of international law, however it is in terms of UK law, and as such if you see a girl who came into the country under bond then you are breaking Harriet Harmans new law on sex trafficking, if you get caught remember the consequences that will go with it.

9/Also note that where a girl is not working in her home town (this includes british girls) and they have an agent/manager/pimp who has arranged everything for them, my understanding of the new law is that they are defined as having been trafficked and as such you as a punter seeing them are breaking the same law.

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Most of the pickers that prepare food for the supermarkets have come here on a bond.

Exactly!

Bonds have been around for a hell of a long time and just about anyone can be tied to one.

Promises are made but not honoured. People go back to their country with very little after having paid off their debtors.

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8/This type of consensual trafficking may not be trafficking in terms of international law, however it is in terms of UK law, and as such if you see a girl who came into the country under bond then you are breaking Harriet Harmans new law on sex trafficking, if you get caught remember the consequences that will go with it.

9/Also note that where a girl is not working in her home town (this includes british girls) and they have an agent/manager/pimp who has arranged everything for them, my understanding of the new law is that they are defined as having been trafficked and as such you as a punter seeing them are breaking the same law.

A very informative post. But regarding those last two points, there is no "new law on sex trafficking". Clause 14 of the Policing & Crime Act makes no mention of trafficking, but is concerned only with paying for sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force or exploitative conduct.

You may argue that debt-bondage is a form of exploitative conduct, and I may well agree, however as far as the Act is concerned:

A third person © engages in exploitative conduct if

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Most of the pickers that prepare food for the supermarkets have come here on a bond.

Perfectly correct!

To me there are two big differences:

a) The Gangmaster (now, and only fairly recently) has to be registered, and there is some control of his exactions and rules re deductions from minimum wage. Snakeheads and / or Madams are not yet registered, alas.

:) Bringing a girl into UK to "go on the game" under bond is most certainly, under our new law, trafficking. Bringing a veg picker/packer in under bond is not.

For those of us who still have practicing certificates, a revision question:

Katja is recruited in Terespol to come to Lincolnshire to pick and pack veg. She enters into a bond with Vaclav, a licenced Gangmaster, to fund her transport etc. After a month, her back hurting from the continual bending over, she goes to a club in Hull one week-end with a couple of colleagues there. She meets a nice boy, who tells her that she could earn three times as much as currently, "on her back" in a local parlour. She goes back to the Nissen Hut where Vaclav has quartered her, and tells him that she is leaving, and will pay him off swiftly. He grumbles, but doesn't stop her.

No Trafficking, yet?

First month, she pays him.

Still no trafficking?

Second month, she forgets (anyway, doesn't pay).

At the club one of her erstwhile colleagues tells her that Vaclav said to tell the little slut that she owes him, and if she doesn't pay, well, he knows where she stays in Poland.

Possibly blackmail? Still no trafficking?

The manager of the parlour where she works then tells her that Vaclav has been in contact, and because she is such a good worker, he has paid Vaclav off, and will deduct it from her earnings, on top of his share.

Ah! Still no trafficking, but I think she is now "controlled" so that her punters are potentially in schtuck?

Any other ideas?

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As far as I can make out, and I have to admit that is not very far because I have yet to get my head around the "Trafficking" laws, the question of whether or not the subject of a bond has been willingly or unwillingly "Trafficked" is completely irrelevant, also whether or not the "Trafficking" is for the purposes of sexual exploitation is also completely irrelevant, and I say this because logically if the subject arrives unwillingly in this country then he/she has been kidnapped/abducted and the reason for him/her being kidnapped/abducted is of no real interest, therefore logic dictates that the "Trafficking" laws can only relate to those subjects who have not been kidnapped/abducted, that is that they arrive in this country willingly.

I agree with this post. Well put as ever.

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A couple of points here, and I'm trying to be as dispassionate as possible here so it may come out a little cold and factual.

1/ Most of the asian girls who come over here, are seasoned professionals back in their home countires, so they know what the work involves, indeed working here can actually be more pleasant for some of them. That said they can still be naive and conned

2/They are out to make as much money as they can send it back home, support parents, children, buy a farm. My friend has a child, who is now weel looked after due to money from here, in addition she has just bought a building plot and is now saving money to build a house. She is not that unusual amongst the girls who come over.

3/They can't afford the travel/ have difficulty getting a visa to come here, so they talk to someone to arrange it for them. They then agree to a contract with the arranger saying for example the first 150 punters will be used to pay off the debt.

4/This debt/bond is not legally enforceable, but remember the arranger isn't doing things legally and they're not here legally. they are enofrced in other ways. At simplest their passport is confiscated at worst sever menaces is used.

5/ It is not unknown for an arranger to exagerate the earning potential/ neglect to mention costs, when agreeign the contract with the girl. My friend told me of one girl who had been told she would earn £70k for a yeat over here. she was very dissapointed at the end of the year to go home with only a tenth of that due to deductions like agency fees/ debt repayment/ rent and other living expenses/ even the false passport to go home.

6/At the end of the contract, what happens depends on the arranger, in the case of asian selection they are free to work elsewhere, however pressure is put on them to agree to prioritise AS bookings over all others, to the extent of cancelling/cutting short bookings form elsewhere. As for the ones who come to work in massage parlours I can't say but imagine it to be simialr or worse.

7/ This is not done to supply the cheap end of the market, some of the bonded girls are too expensive for Jimmiredcab(not that that says much) so don't think higher price means you're ok.

8/This type of consensual trafficking may not be trafficking in terms of international law, however it is in terms of UK law, and as such if you see a girl who came into the country under bond then you are breaking Harriet Harmans new law on sex trafficking, if you get caught remember the consequences that will go with it.

9/Also note that where a girl is not working in her home town (this includes british girls) and they have an agent/manager/pimp who has arranged everything for them, my understanding of the new law is that they are defined as having been trafficked and as such you as a punter seeing them are breaking the same law.

Very well explained.

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And its also clear that the commercial arrangements that the girls are operating under now has lets say evolved from how it was when OG were raided.

I find it peculiar that a loan given by an individual in a foreigh country, is automatically assumed to be enforceable through violence or the threat of it. Why, if the girls come here freely and happily (in the case of all the asian girls I've met). The girls come from relatively poor backgrounds and do not have the resources to provide any security for a conventional loan.

In this country if you borrow from a bank and cannot repay the debt - and personal borrowing at the moment is little short of usury if you ask me, especially if funded on a credit card, - and you will be threatened in the process, not with physical violence although the resulting stress might be considered the same as a product of violence or coercion by some people. In this country those that don't have access to funds will go to a loan shark with the same problem. I would much prefer that loan sharking and the need for it were tackled by the authorities before they tackle 'trafficking'.

Its typical in many quarters to apply 'British' standards to perceived problems emanating from other countries, it fact its a national habit and our worst charateristic. Its condescending, patronising, ignorant and wrong. And rampant hypocrisy too as the actual standard is only imagined, and rarely exists here. rant over :)

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Interesting scenario, Irgendeiner. However:

Bringing a girl into UK to "go on the game" under bond is most certainly, under our new law, trafficking.

As you will note from my previous post, there is no new law relating to sex trafficking per se.

According to my understanding, the relevant law begins with the 2002 Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act, which made the trafficking of people for prostitution illegal. This legislation was strengthened in the Sexual Offences Act 2003, which made trafficking for all forms of sexual exploitation, not just for prostitution, a crime. The following year the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants) Act further criminalised trafficking for all purposes, including forced labour.

Still no trafficking, but I think she is now "controlled" so that her punters are potentially in schtuck?

"Controlled" is nowhere in the new legislation. Has she been coerced or deceived, though? Vaclav has used threats, but he is not her pimp, only her gangmaster. So has she actually been coerced into supplying sexual services, and if so, by whom? Dubious, therefore prosecution of a punter unlikely.

This is a dispassionate reading of the case; I'm not saying it's an ideal situation.

I think I'll let SaSfan handle any more of these. It's a thankless task, but someone's gotta do it.

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And its also clear that the commercial arrangements that the girls are operating under now has lets say evolved from how it was when OG were raided.

I find it peculiar that a loan given by an individual in a foreigh country, is automatically assumed to be enforceable through violence or the threat of it. Why, if the girls come here freely and happily (in the case of all the asian girls I've met). The girls come from relatively poor backgrounds and do not have the resources to provide any security for a conventional loan.

In this country if you borrow from a bank and cannot repay the debt - and personal borrowing at the moment is little short of usury if you ask me, especially if funded on a credit card, - and you will be threatened in the process, not with physical violence although the resulting stress might be considered the same as a product of violence or coercion by some people. In this country those that don't have access to funds will go to a loan shark with the same problem. I would much prefer that loan sharking and the need for it were tackled by the authorities before they tackle 'trafficking'.

Its typical in many quarters to apply 'British' standards to perceived problems emanating from other countries, it fact its a national habit and our worst charateristic. Its condescending, patronising, ignorant and wrong. And rampant hypocrisy too as the actual standard is only imagined, and rarely exists here. rant over :)

I wouldnt know if the commercial arrangements have evolved. Its clear i think completely differently to you, instead of still calling the 2 Agencies you referred to as the 2 best despite you knowing they were shutdown suddenly due to this subject matter, i wouldnt have referred to them now as the 2 best because i know they had been shutdown for this practice, which makes them beyond the pale in my view. You still rate them where i would have condemned them.

The forms of credit you mention are legal until and unless they break the law in some way, Bonding is not legal here and for good reason in my view. Unlike most forms of credit here its not regulated, the lady is at the mercy of controllers who have a vested financial motive in her working as a Prostitute for them, with the possible consequences of violence to her and/or her family if she cant or wants to stop.

If i had an inkling a lady was on a Bond i wouldnt punt with her, simple as. Plenty of choice about after all.

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I wouldnt know if the commercial arrangements have evolved. Its clear i think completely differently to you, instead of still calling the 2 Agencies you referred to as the 2 best despite you knowing they were shutdown suddenly due to this subject matter, i wouldnt have referred to them now as the 2 best because i know they had been shutdown for this practice, which makes them beyond the pale in my view. You still rate them where i would have condemned them.

The forms of credit you mention are legal until and unless they break the law in some way, Bonding is not legal here and for good reason in my view. Unlike most forms of credit here its not regulated, the lady is at the mercy of controllers who have a vested financial motive in her working as a Prostitute for them, with the possible consequences of violence to her and/or her family if she cant or wants to stop.

If i had an inkling a lady was on a Bond i wouldnt punt with her, simple as. Plenty of choice about after all.

As one who has regularly posted here on the subject of oriental agencies, I am currently doing a 'rethink'. These two threads have raised a number of troubling points that need to be digested thoughtfully. I am less troubled by the 'bonding' or 'contract' issue that you and some others are - because, in my selective moral judgment, the end really does justify the means here. The 'end' that I refer to is the 'end' of the oriental WG, who comes to this country bearing spirit, enthusiasm and ambition - frankly, offering a quite different punting experience (to me and some others) than the western WG - hoping to improve her life and living standard when she returns home after a 1-2 year stint here. To some extent, therefore, their end is my end, as well. That 'end' may not square with the ends of the Immigration Service, HMRC, the Met or those parliamentarians who - when they are not busily cheating the HMRC and the taxpayer with their own aberrant behavior - are wreaking havoc upon our hobby with new legislation and ground rules in that great cause of radical feminism.

When 'ends' compete, most people chose the one that causes them the least inconvenience and shrug of the other without excessive concern. Those who do NOT patronise oriental WGs can find it easy to be critical their circumstances and plight. We who DO fancy (if not prefer) them can usually massage logic to make patronising oriental WGs acceptable and therefore highly desirable.

Obviously, laws are made with good intentions but often achieve bad ends. Morality is different. WE each define morality for ourselves; Harriet Harman, Jacqui Smith and Denis MacShane CANNOT define mine and I will not let them do so for me. I WILL ultimately obey the laws, though, even when I am very skeptical of them. And I will observe with interest whatever changes actually take place in the environment for our hobby in the months ahead. I may or may not use agencies in the future but, in any case, 'it's a brand new ballgame' and I certainly will not use ANY intermediary with which I do not feel comfortable - I may limit myself to indies but I will not stop punting. However, I am still 'rethinking'.

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It wasnt well known to me. Two and a half years ago i wasnt a member here.

I note you say the 2 best Agencies, they sound great, with sex slaves available paying off their Bonds. I really missed out there, not. These ladies are Trafficked willingly or not with consequences if they dont pay off the Bond. I dont want to punt with ladies in that position personally.

In my view the more that are aware of this practice on here the better.

As to waking up man i have to this subject which is why i opened a thread about it.

I for one think its a very valid thread to start up.Although the usual threads can be a giggle,or infuriating,they do not really carry the weight that this one does in that this is a very serious matter. Two of the best agencies around for the punters maybe,but how anyone can describe an agency that traffics girls as "the best " beggers belief.It good to see that some guys carry their morals over into such an apparently immoral arena.xxx

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