psisam

New Bill Closure Orders.. 136B

28 posts in this topic

Looks like the police will be able to get a closure order on any premisies if pornography or prostitution is suspected only resonable grounds for suspecting are required... nothing about proof... so any FR or website or anything seems to be able to be used to give reasonable grounds...

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Looks like the police will be able to get a closure order on any premisies if pornography or prostitution is suspected only resonable grounds for suspecting are required... nothing about proof... so any FR or website or anything seems to be able to be used to give reasonable grounds...

This prolly poses a greater risk to the industry than other more widely publicised clauses.

Parlours in residential areas and/or where there is a "history" with local residents could be targeted for closure, for example following pressure from the local community on the police and councillors.

Two examples which spring to mind are World Famous Babes in Swinton, Manchester which was raided last year allegedly following complaints from the local community, and Sandy's Superstars in Northeden, also Manchester, where the police are on record as saying that they would take action, again following complaints from the local community. [Reference]

B

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This prolly poses a greater risk to the industry than other more widely publicised clauses.

Parlours in residential areas and/or where there is a "history" with local residents could be targeted for closure, for example following pressure from the local community on the police and councillors.

Two examples which spring to mind are World Famous Babes in Swinton, Manchester which was raided last year allegedly following complaints from the local community, and Sandy's Superstars in Northeden, also Manchester, where the police are on record as saying that they would take action, again following complaints from the local community. [Reference]

B

From the photo of Inspector Peter Aaronson it looks like he's just walked out of Sandy's :rolleyes:

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taken em 5 years to not close it doen so far. must be l.oads of evidence for them to sift through!

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The item on Sandy's, Northenden, dates to 2003 & the local Inspector has changed since then. The new one threw out the the dossier & investigated a complaint by popping in for a brew & chat with the owners; telling them that he had to investigate but would be taking no further action.

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The item on Sandy's, Northenden, dates to 2003 & the local Inspector has changed since then. The new one threw out the the dossier & investigated a complaint by popping in for a brew & chat with the owners; telling them that he had to investigate but would be taking no further action.

That may be the case, but the political climate has changed since then and the bill will give new impetus to those wanting to close parlours in residential areas, and more importantly for them the means by which to do it.

The legislation requires the police to consult with the local authority prior to issuing a closure notice (detailed in Schedule 2 of the bill), so in the case of Manchester with its relatively liberal attitude to off-street prostitution there the question is perhaps moot.

B

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if all punters wrote to their mps to voice concern that these proposed laws would impact on the safety of women who choose to sell sex,then there would be less chance of such laws being implemented.

i understand that many punters want to stay "in the closet" so by emphasising womens safety, its a way of being against the proposed law without being seen as a punter

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taken em 5 years to not close it doen so far. must be l.oads of evidence for them to sift through!

They do not have power to close any down yet.... they can raid it one day and it can open the next... but not if section 136 comes into force... they can prevent anyone other than the owner from entering the property... so this is a huge new power the police have never had before...

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if all punters wrote to their mps to voice concern that these proposed laws would impact on the safety of women who choose to sell sex,then there would be less chance of such laws being implemented.

i understand that many punters want to stay "in the closet" so by emphasising womens safety, its a way of being against the proposed law without being seen as a punter

Dream on... it would not make any difference at all to HH or Miss Smith... This bill will become law.

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Wow! We're getting technical.

My take on all of this presently is that the Police have far too much on their hands at the moment. I also fear that if the economic position does not quickly pick up there will be a severe increase in crime generally that will stretch police resources yet further.

So I predict all this 'New Labour - politically correct (Humph) legislation' - if ever passed into law, will be massively ignored by forces around the country who will instead concentrate on real crime (so urged by their relative authorities most of whom have more common sense in their little fingers than the present Home Sec. in her brain). The result will be that the crack-down as respects pimped/ trafficked /sex slave girls from the East or Far East will continue - because right-thinking senior officers understand that this is the real area of concern.

Well I certainly hope so anyway

Uncle Pokey

Hopefully that will leave the Indies and other decently run parlours to get on with things and, who

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My afterthought was interupted by Auntie - Insert, please, a full stop before the last two words thereof and delete said words.

Uncle Pokey

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Wow! We're getting technical.

My take on all of this presently is that the Police have far too much on their hands at the moment. I also fear that if the economic position does not quickly pick up there will be a severe increase in crime generally that will stretch police resources yet further.

So I predict all this 'New Labour - politically correct (Humph) legislation' - if ever passed into law, will be massively ignored by forces around the country who will instead concentrate on real crime (so urged by their relative authorities most of whom have more common sense in their little fingers than the present Home Sec. in her brain). The result will be that the crack-down as respects pimped/ trafficked /sex slave girls from the East or Far East will continue - because right-thinking senior officers understand that this is the real area of concern.

Well I certainly hope so anyway

Uncle Pokey

Hopefully that will leave the Indies and other decently run parlours to get on with things and, who

I think the police will take plenty of notice because they will be told to by Miss J Smith...

My friend is reading through the bill as published to see how it will be able to be used under pressure... The police at the moment have to act if they get a complaint, but a single girl working is not an easy target if she does everything else right. I do think it will get many parlours closed and have these closure notices placed on the places so they cannot open again tomorrow.

What we need is to use cell phones so the regullars can always find us if we are forced to move.

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I think the police will take plenty of notice because they will be told to by Miss J Smith....

I reckon this will be the case, particularly immediately after the bill has passed into law.

Remember that Jacqui Smith is on record as saying she wants punters to think twice before paying for sex... get ready for a shock and awe campaign of raids on high profile establishments.

Imagine this recent raid if the new law had been in effect:

Police raid on Tamworth town centre 'brothel'

The 'male, believed to be a client, found at the premises' at the time of the raid who 'is now helping officers with their enquiries' would in future be facing a criminal record and the parlour closed permanently (which is prolly going to be the case anyway given where it is located in Tamworth).

B

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Dream on... it would not make any difference at all to HH or Miss Smith... This bill will become law.

of course it would make a difference,because of the lack of public support for an outright ban,theyve had to try this approach, if we stay silent then it will become law so its up to us all(not just a few) to voice opposition

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I reckon this will be the case, particularly immediately after the bill has passed into law.

Remember that Jacqui Smith is on record as saying she wants punters to think twice before paying for sex... get ready for a shock and awe campaign of raids on high profile establishments.

Imagine this recent raid if the new law had been in effect:

Police raid on Tamworth town centre 'brothel'

The 'male, believed to be a client, found at the premises' at the time of the raid who 'is now helping officers with their enquiries' would in future be facing a criminal record and the parlour closed permanently (which is prolly going to be the case anyway given where it is located in Tamworth).

B

Two women, suspected to be sex workers, were arrested and have been released on police bail.

Sadly no mention of why they were arrested.

Of course the 'male, believed to be a client, found at the premises' would only "be facing a criminal record" if it could be proved that the prostitute he payed for sexual services was "controlled for gain", whatever that might mean.

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Sadly no mention of why they were arrested.

Of course the 'male, believed to be a client, found at the premises' would only "be facing a criminal record" if it could be proved that the prostitute he payed for sexual services was "controlled for gain", whatever that might mean.

Sasfan has hit the nail on the head. the wording is too vague so the law will be created with case law in the appeal courts and the House of Lords as ultimate appeal court.

And the judges have to interpret the law as it is written - they can't look at stuff like Hansard to find out what parliament meant, so the devil is in the actual written law. And I wonder how the CPS will regard this - they have to give weight to the 'public interest'

Roll on the committee scrutiny, and the house of lords (legislative function). they can have the opportunity to wreck the measure by re-drafting the clauses.

Interesting year...

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Luton Jenny has made a really good point.

Maybe WGs need to make sure their trusted & regular (this is important 'trusted') Clients have the Wgs cell phone number and can carry on trade via that route.

Ahead of the new law I would advise most indipendant WGS to build up a safe list of clients.

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And the judges have to interpret the law as it is written - they can't look at stuff like Hansard to find out what parliament meant

Hang on, since Pepper v Hart surely if the meaning of legislation is deemed by the judges to be unclear then Ministerial statements during the passage of the legislation concerned may be brought to bear in order to determine its meaning.

Uncle Pokey

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Lets hope there's a General Election next year before this legislation has a chance to get off the ground. These proposed measures are a real vote loser for Labour amonst the punting community, and many other free thinkers.

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of course it would make a difference,because of the lack of public support for an outright ban,theyve had to try this approach, if we stay silent then it will become law so its up to us all(not just a few) to voice opposition

So you are going to write to them, say I am Mr so and so I live at so and so, I am a punter and I want to complain... or do you think they will take any notice if you do not say who you are? as I say dream on...

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Sadly no mention of why they were arrested.

Of course the 'male, believed to be a client, found at the premises' would only "be facing a criminal record" if it could be proved that the prostitute he payed for sexual services was "controlled for gain", whatever that might mean.

As I say..... in the real world.... he will plead guilty to get it over and done.. but you being the brave SAS Fan may fight and as I say I wish you the best of luck. But most punters I feel will not fight... and also as I have said, the police arrested me in a brothel and took me in for questioning on suspicion of running it even though they knew I was just a punter. It is very easy to say on this board you would do this and do that and fight the police case but in the real world how many punter would fight... I hope someone set up a poll so we can see how many of us like you would fight it.

If you have ever been arrested, finger printed, dna swabbed photographed you will know how it feels... I am an old hand at it, it does not bother me much but I imagine the punters they knick will not be as used to being arrested as I am.. they will bottle it... plead guilty in the morning and quit punting.

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As I say..... in the real world.... he will plead guilty to get it over and done.. but you being the brave SAS Fan may fight and as I say I wish you the best of luck. But most punters I feel will not fight... and also as I have said, the police arrested me in a brothel and took me in for questioning on suspicion of running it even though they knew I was just a punter. It is very easy to say on this board you would do this and do that and fight the police case but in the real world how many punter would fight... I hope someone set up a poll so we can see how many of us like you would fight it.

If you have ever been arrested, finger printed, dna swabbed photographed you will know how it feels... I am an old hand at it, it does not bother me much but I imagine the punters they knick will not be as used to being arrested as I am.. they will bottle it... plead guilty in the morning and quit punting.

Where exactly are you getting all this "brave SAS Fan may fight" and "It is very easy to say on this board you would do this and do that and fight the police case" from? Could you please point out any post that states that I would fight, thank you.

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Where exactly are you getting all this "brave SAS Fan may fight" and "It is very easy to say on this board you would do this and do that and fight the police case" from? Could you please point out any post that states that I would fight, thank you.

I am pointing out that you often raise points that are real but In the real world would not be easy to raise. You go on about the definition of controlling but as we see people still get arrested in brothels. You can say all you like about the rights and wrongs of it, it happens. So the hyperthetical world of posts on this board are often very different from reality.

The new act if it comes in seems very clear about what is controlling... you do not seem to think it is. But I bet you the police will not be concerned what your views are on the meaning and will still arrest people. It one thing sitting here its quite another for the poor punter just arrested sitting in the police van on his way to the police station. It is true you can plead not guilty. You can challenge the charges and some will do that. But if the place has a manager or any other person there working with the girls it seems pretty clear that your going to be found guilty by the magistrate and as I say lets see how many punter here would fight.

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I am pointing out that you often raise points that are real but In the real world would not be easy to raise.

No, you are not pointing out that I often raise points ............. you are posting that "brave SAS Fan may fight" and "It is very easy to say on this board you would do this and do that and fight the police case" and I would like you to post links where I have said anything like that please, thank you.

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psisam, maybe it's different north of the border, but up here there's a huge difference between being arrested and convicted. Anyone can be arrested for damn near anything - the word simply means "stopped"; in our language: "particularly by the police." But, having arrested you, the police must then find enough evidence to charge you, and, having charged you, they must then submit your case to the PF (CPS in your case). If the CPS/PF chooses to prosecute - and they may not - they then have to prove in a court of law, that you did whatever it was they charged you with. "Whatever it was you were charged with" is written down in law. In the case of "controlling prostitutes", the meaning of the word "controlling" has not yet been established in English law.

Which is when definitions of words become important. Therein rests guilt or innocence, a criminal record or walking out of court without a blemish on your character. Even if most punters "plead guilty" (to what? :cool: Being pimps? Or rapists? Pretty serious offences...) it only takes one to stand up and fight his case - and that "one" is needed in order to establish case law.

Now, you may have been "knicked" many times, but I don't think it's gone much further than a night in the cells, huh? :D

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