Biggus Dickus

BBC exposes the 80% lie

45 posts in this topic

The sound of chickens coming home to roost?

BBC Radio 4 news prog this morning just before 7.30. I was still half asleep, but this soon woke me up! Female broadcaster questioning government stats around prostitution, particularly the claim that 80% are trafficked. Actually phoned McTaggart who waffled on about it being in 'Paying the Price'. The broadcaster then said she searched through Paying the Price but could not find the figure. She had found stats indicating that 80% of women (in Central London?) were foreign, but as she pointed out, being foreign does not mean being trafficked. She then unpacked the results of Pentameter 1 and 2, which indicated numbers vastly smaller than 80%.

If I was hearing correctly in my still sleepy state, the announcer said this was a trail for a programme on Radio 4 this afternoon at 1.30 (Looking at the listings there is a regular prog at that time about facts, figures & stats).

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Thanks Elrond.

McTaggart really is shameless. "60% to 93% of women in studies are drug addicted".

"The experience of most women in prostitution is akin to being trafficked". "Trafficked" is in itself a word capable of flexible definition (Being 'of Asian appearance' would seem to be enough according to a police press statement last year), but now it's being widened even further to include experiences which in some way are 'akin' to being trafficked. Sounds like she is getting increasingly desperate in trying to defend the un-defendable.

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I have posted your comments on a couple of other punter sites. Too lazy to make my own up.

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This reminds me of something I read a year or two ago in a german newspaper. Opponents of the new liberal laws there were cititing how "studies were showing" that three of four prostitutes in german brothels were trafficked. And the article was questioning that claim. They had, among other things, interviews with three brothel workers in different cities, one Thai, one Latvian and one Romanian girl, that fell under their definition of being trafficked.

They all had pretty much the same story. Former streetwalkers in their home land, under pretty bad conditions, and controlled by a pimp. Then one of their customers asked something like "Hey you're a really good lay, why don't you come west and work for me instead? You work for pocket change now, and get to keep almost nothing for yourself. I guarantee you'll make at least twice as much at the place I run in Germany. Probably more."

Said and done. Guy bought them plane tickets, bribed their pimps to let them go, and helped them get their passports and papers in order. The only "control" their new employer excerted over them was that they owed him some 2000 to 3000 Euros for getting there. The Thai girl told the reporter that she had saved up that much and paid him back within the first three months.

"I have my passport, I have money, I can leave whenever I want to. But why would I? I's much safer here, I make much more money and have much nicer customers," she was quoted saying. (I'm paraphrasing here, but something like that.)

Those women were counted in the statistic as "victims of trafficking", by those opposed to the liberal legislation. Due to two factors. The loan to get them moved to Germany, and the fact that it's hard to get a guest worker permit as a prostitute, so they were there as "students" and "tourists" officially, which made their employment and status as tax payers a bit wishy-washy.

Not that there aren't actual and serious cases of trafficking going on. Certainly in the seedier parts of the business. But it makes me wonder. How many of the foreign sex workers in W. Europe have stories exactly like that, including more upscale escorts?

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Just listened to the prog at 1.30. "More or Less" is a weekly prog about numbers and the first 15 mins was looking at this "80%" claim. The presenter mocked the methodology of the research which had been done by ringing parlours, asking the nationalities of the workers and then concluding that they must all be trafficked if they were foreign.

He then spoke with Julia McConnel Davidson (sp?) a researcher who did her own version of that research. She did warn that it was a v dodgy way of doing research. What her researchers did was to go one step further and ask whether certain extreme services were on offer, on the assumption that trafficked women would be forced to offer everything, so any refusals might indicate a degree of independence. Large numbers of parlours phoned told the reasearchers that more extreme services were NOT on offer, leading to the conclusion that large numbers of workers had control over what they were prepared to do.

They then looked at the results of the Pentameter police raids, and- based on the number of women 'rescued'- came to the conclusion that trafficked women probably account for under 5% of parlour workers.

So- how many WGs are there in the UK? The most commonly quoted figure is 80 000. They interviewed Hilary Kinnel, who had originally come up with this number. She explained that it had been very much a 'ball park' figure and she was a bit peeved that her guesstimate has now become set in stone as a much firmer figure than she ever intended.

Julia O Connel Davidson then mentioned the "25 000 sex slaves" claim. She said she'd asked Dennis McShane about this and he said he'd got it from a 2005 report in the Daily Mirror- which he trusted "because I used to be a Mirror journalist". [You couldn't make this up! Talk about Mickey Mouse]

Kulia O'C D then made a point which keeps coming back to me: if politicians really believe this figure, what do they think of their own police forces? 25k sex slaves would service 3/4 of a million men. Are they really saying that 3/4 million men can go out and find a sex slave yet their own police forces can only find 250?

Next came a phone interview with the woman McTaggart, confronting her 80% claim. When faced with the results of Julia O'C D's research (see above) she actually had the absolutely fecking unbelievable brass nerve to say that the problem with academics is that they tend to start with a particular stance and then do research which tends to prove it!! Firstly that's a slanderous thing to say about any university researcher, and secondly she needs to look in the mirror (And I don't mean the Daily Mirror).

The interviewer did pick her up on this and suggested that politicians were quite well known for using stats to support a pre-conception. The interviewer then mentioned that McT's researcher had sent them info, that the 80% figure came from a study of street prostitutes in SanFransisco in the 90s. McT acknowledged this, did not seem in any way abashed- tho did sound a bit pissed off that her researcher had let that one slip out!

Finally they checked with the Home Office, who confirmed that they do not condone or use the claim that 80% of prostitutes are controlled/trafficked.

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Just listened to the prog at 1.30. "More or Less" is a weekly prog about numbers and the first 15 mins was looking at this "80%" claim. The presenter mocked the methodology of the research which had been done by ringing parlours, asking the nationalities of the workers and then concluding that they must all be trafficked if they were foreign.

He then spoke with Julia McConnel Davidson (sp?) a researcher who did her own version of that research. She did warn that it was a v dodgy way of doing research. What her researchers did was to go one step further and ask whether certain extreme services were on offer, on the assumption that trafficked women would be forced to offer everything, so any refusals might indicate a degree of independence. Large numbers of parlours phoned told the reasearchers that more extreme services were NOT on offer, leading to the conclusion that large numbers of workers had control over what they were prepared to do.

They then looked at the results of the Pentameter police raids, and- based on the number of women 'rescued'- came to the conclusion that trafficked women probably account for under 5% of parlour workers.

So- how many WGs are there in the UK? The most commonly quoted figure is 80 000. They interviewed Hilary Kinnel, who had originally come up with this number. She explained that it had been very much a 'ball park' figure and she was a bit peeved that her guesstimate has now become set in stone as a much firmer figure than she ever intended.

Julia O Connel Davidson then mentioned the "25 000 sex slaves" claim. She said she'd asked Dennis McShane about this and he said he'd got it from a 2005 report in the Daily Mirror- which he trusted "because I used to be a Mirror journalist". [You couldn't make this up! Talk about Mickey Mouse]

Kulia O'C D then made a point which keeps coming back to me: if politicians really believe this figure, what do they think of their own police forces? 25k sex slaves would service 3/4 of a million men. Are they really saying that 3/4 million men can go out and find a sex slave yet their own police forces can only find 250?

Next came a phone interview with the woman McTaggart, confronting her 80% claim. When faced with the results of Julia O'C D's research (see above) she actually had the absolutely fecking unbelievable brass nerve to say that the problem with academics is that they tend to start with a particular stance and then do research which tends to prove it!! Firstly that's a slanderous thing to say about any university researcher, and secondly she needs to look in the mirror (And I don't mean the Daily Mirror).

The interviewer did pick her up on this and suggested that politicians were quite well known for using stats to support a pre-conception. The interviewer then mentioned that McT's researcher had sent them info, that the 80% figure came from a study of street prostitutes in SanFransisco in the 90s. McT acknowledged this, did not seem in any way abashed- tho did sound a bit pissed off that her researcher had let that one slip out!

Finally they checked with the Home Office, who confirmed that they do not condone or use the claim that 80% of prostitutes are controlled/trafficked.

Good summary, but McTaggart also developed her own interpretation of sexual slavery to include a situation in which a foreign woman comes to the UK & decides that sex work is the best means of making a decent living from the options available; as this would indicate that she didn't have much control over her life.

She also repeated the old tactic of applying common factors in the street market; i.e. drug addiction & pimping (she made no distinction between pimps & parlour/agency mamnagement), & applied it to the conditions experienced by sex workers as a whole.

Her claim that the figures she spews forth are supported by the majority of academic research in the field is a blatant lie; the opposite is, in fact, the case.

Finally, after stating that (street) sex workers are 40% more likely to be subject to rape, assault or murder than other women, she made no attempt to demonstrate how the proposed legislation would improve their conditions nor how closing down the demonstrably safer indoor venues would improve the lives of the workers therein.

There are lies, damn lies, statistics & statements by NULabour politicians.

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Thanks Elrond.

McTaggart really is shameless. "60% to 93% of women in studies are drug addicted".

"The experience of most women in prostitution is akin to being trafficked". "Trafficked" is in itself a word capable of flexible definition (Being 'of Asian appearance' would seem to be enough according to a police press statement last year), but now it's being widened even further to include experiences which in some way are 'akin' to being trafficked. Sounds like she is getting increasingly desperate in trying to defend the un-defendable.

I listened to the 1:30 show. Government telling lies as they always do. Yes there are some girls forced. Not many. I doubt even 1 %.

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... and if anybody is interested and missed it, it'll be repeated on Sunday @ 8:00 - they didn't specify AM or PM though :cool:

That would be PM, though here is a link to it on the BBC iPlayer - the first 10 or 12 minutes of the program.

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Good summary, but McTaggart also developed her own interpretation of sexual slavery to include a situation in which a foreign woman comes to the UK & decides that sex work is the best means of making a decent living from the options available; as this would indicate that she didn't have much control over her life.

Hm. Then it's not all that much about foreign or not, is it? Or does McT think that a non UK born woman is somehow less capable of taking control of her life? I'm sure I'm not the only one who fail to see the logic.

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The sound of chickens coming home to roost?

BBC Radio 4 news prog this morning just before 7.30. I was still half asleep, but this soon woke me up! Female broadcaster questioning government stats around prostitution, particularly the claim that 80% are trafficked. Actually phoned McTaggart who waffled on about it being in 'Paying the Price'. The broadcaster then said she searched through Paying the Price but could not find the figure. She had found stats indicating that 80% of women (in Central London?) were foreign, but as she pointed out, being foreign does not mean being trafficked. She then unpacked the results of Pentameter 1 and 2, which indicated numbers vastly smaller than 80%.

If I was hearing correctly in my still sleepy state, the announcer said this was a trail for a programme on Radio 4 this afternoon at 1.30 (Looking at the listings there is a regular prog at that time about facts, figures & stats).

I've just listened to the programme and think it is an absolute disgrace that the police have been so inefficient. Here we are with 80,000 prostitutes of whom 80%, that's 64,000, are being trafficked and the entire efforts of Pentameter 1 and Pentameter 2 have found fewer than 200 of them. Write to your MP and urge him to get the Home Secretary to explain this appalling inefficiency.

I'm sure you, Biggus, will remember the police raid on the Escorts 1 flat in Oxford when 17 policemen raided the place in the name of trafficking and found one English girl working on her own without even a receptionist. I hope the Chief Constable was duly recognised in the New Year's Honours.

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Here we are with 80,000 prostitutes of whom 80%are being trafficked and the entire efforts of Pentameter 1 and Pentameter 2 have found fewer than 200 of them. Write to your MP and urge him to get the Home Secretary to explain this appalling inefficiency.

To be fair, the Home Office is now washing its hands of the 80% figure

I'm sure you, Biggus, will remember the police raid on the Escorts 1 flat in Oxford when 17 policemen raided the place in the name of trafficking and found one English girl working on her own without even a receptionist.

I do indeed. I remember also the later raid on the place in Marsden Road where the best they could come up with was an announcement that they'd found a woman 'of Asian appearance'

......................................

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That is excellent and especially because the BBC did it.. Will listen to it shortly. :cool:

I love Fiona McTaggart saying that the problem with academics is that they tend to start with a particular stance and then do research which tends to prove it!!

Yes Biggus, the woman seriously needs to look at herself in the mirror.. !!

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Yes Biggus, the woman seriously needs to look at herself in the mirror.. !!

If I was her, I'd avoid mirrors like the plague (and I generally try to avoid the plague).

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I listened to the 1:30 show. Government telling lies as they always do. Yes there are some girls forced. Not many. I doubt even 1 %.

I'd say you're far closer to the truth than the 80% figure - far, far, far closer... I have to be honest and say that there are Eastern European girls - I have even encountered some in a "late night" Sheffield parlour - I've often been sat chatting to them thinking "are they?" - but they quite plainly aren't... they talk to me about wanting to go to cities that have a more vibrant sex scene... a city where they can earn more... now if they were trafficked - if they were being "controlled" - would they really be wanting to voluntarily go and do more????

I just think the figure of 80% is ludicrous... I'd say that we're perhaps looking at 20-25% of the industry now being made up of migrant sex workers - and of that 20-25% a very, very, very negligible proportion are forced into the industry. I'm sure it DOES happen... positive it does - but I've never encountered it and I've never spoken to anyone who has encountered it - that in itself (whilst not "sceintific") would seem to render the stats completely beyond belief.

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Oh I just loved listening to that.

"Your researcher told us that the 80% figure came from a san francisco study on street prostitutes in 1982"

"........Well I didn't ask her to tell you that......"

Oh how I laughed and laughed.

"I didn't say 80% were controlled for gain of others. I said they were controlled by pimps, drug dealers, or traffickers."

Well they're all "others" aren't they??????

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Well I went for a punt tonight and thought I'd found a trafficked girl in my local parlour..... Black hair, lovely brown eyes, brown skin, a bit shy..... kind of sophisticated looking. Then she opened her mouth.... a Hull accent :cool:

Turns out she's lived here all her life - funny how first impressions can deceive you !!

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I think we can notch 1 up for truth, or at least for debunking the high-numer-trafficking myth and defusing the arguments in favour of the un-practical proposed law.

Kuddos to whoever engineered this. Good Work.

If the BBC came up with it all alone: even better.

And remember this when you need to pay the tv license next time,

the BBC is after all one of the most trusted institutes in the UK (even after dr Kelly)

Looking forward to the next battle between the femnazists and the Floozies, as this war is not won yet.

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This government would never tell us a lie. Just look at all the WMDs they found in Iraq.

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I think we can notch 1 up for truth, or at least for debunking the high-numer-trafficking myth and defusing the arguments in favour of the un-practical proposed law.

Kuddos to whoever engineered this. Good Work.

If the BBC came up with it all alone: even better.

And remember this when you need to pay the tv license next time,

the BBC is after all one of the most trusted institutes in the UK (even after dr Kelly)

Looking forward to the next battle between the femnazists and the Floozies, as this war is not won yet.

I just hope that the Commons is equally sceptical and inquisitorial when Part 2 of the Policing and Crime Bill is debated shortly.

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I've just listened to the programme and think it is an absolute disgrace that the police have been so inefficient. Here we are with 80,000 prostitutes of whom 80%, that's 64,000, are being trafficked and the entire efforts of Pentameter 1 and Pentameter 2 have found fewer than 200 of them. Write to your MP and urge him to get the Home Secretary to explain this appalling inefficiency.

I'm sure you, Biggus, will remember the police raid on the Escorts 1 flat in Oxford when 17 policemen raided the place in the name of trafficking and found one English girl working on her own without even a receptionist. I hope the Chief Constable was duly recognised in the New Year's Honours.

And to remind you the guy who ran that is currently on trial of about to be on trial. They are after hime to get as much monet from him as possible. All his assets have been frozen for month.s

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....... The interviewer then mentioned that McT's researcher had sent them info, that the 80% figure came from a study of street prostitutes in SanFransisco in the 90s. McT acknowledged this, did not seem in any way abashed- tho did sound a bit pissed off that her researcher had let that one slip out!......

No - worse than that! The San Francisco study was in 1982 - 27 years ago!!

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the BBC is after all one of the most trusted institutes in the UK (even after dr Kelly)

The BBC is far more reliable and trustworthy than the government. I have long believed that we would be better of if the BBC ran the country. I would not wish to see the government run a TV station or even organise a piss up in a brewery.

(Hasn't the Kelly story that the WMD report was sexed up been shown to be true?)

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