Mr DivineMK

What would make you feel comfortable

83 posts in this topic

With the laws on prostitution changing and all of us being guilty of not having a real clue what it means I just wanted to know what will make you feel comfortable to continue to punt.

It is not going to be illegal to punt, it is though going to be illegal to punt with a girl who is forced regardless of you declaring ignorance. So I just wanted some ideas. Please don't turn this into an Indi vs Parlour thread just want to know so that come 1st April I have not got to let go of 10 receptionists etc. There are men that want to be able to continue to see girls in the habit they are used to.

Now we currently check all the girls right to be in the country. I was thinking of perhaps having their details filed and on hand at all times. We currently operate 2 girls only with no maid present acting only as a booking agency, this will remain but I thought perhaps if each girl had a disclaimer that was signed by herself to show when the paper work was sorted at the start of each punt there would be sufficient evidence there to state that you were happy she was no forced.

We will of course ensure the girls status in the country, age etc but want to know if you can think of any more details that would make you feel more confident. I expect people will wait and see what happens to start but the Brothel Closure orders are already in force and no one has noticed. A number of raids were done and these were used but the clients present as usual were just asked to dress and leave. The girls details were collected, checked and then it was business as usual so I do wonder what will happen when this comes into force to.

We will remain open after all living off immoral earnings has always been illegal but we want to know what will make you feel safe, comfortable and in a position to trust that we are taking this seriously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent question, but not sure I have an answer. Declarations were discussed on a recent thread, and the consensus was that they're of very little use from an evidence perspective against a charge of this nature. However, whether they make punters feel a bit safer in themselves is another matter ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Excellent question, but not sure I have an answer. Declarations were discussed on a recent thread, and the consensus was that they're of very little use from an evidence perspective against a charge of this nature. However, whether they make punters feel a bit safer in themselves is another matter ...

I think that HOD will operate as a booking only agency, we will really just be operating as an advertising forum offering the girls the facility to carry out incall appointments. If we can also offer a detailed file on the ladies status and a disclaimer signed by her it cannot be any different to seeing any other girl. This may mean that the rota is abandoned and each girl advertisers her available days somewhat like ** but as yet we are not sure. We were just going to leave things as they were but don't think this is fair as it will leave a lot of people confused hence my question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing that has ever bothered me is doing my utmost to ensure lady is a "willing participant". (Must be a better way to phrase that, but hopefully the meaning comes across.)

I will be happy to continue to use independents with good feedback, agencies and parlours with good reputations.

So.... really any likely legal change... is not going to effect my punting. (Though I think there's at least an argument that seeing new indies will actually be riskier than going to a "tried and tested" parlour. If I've not seen an indie before, how can I be relatively sure that no sinister controller lurks in the background? In the case of parlours I've been to already, I've always been pretty sure that the relationship between the managers and workforce was just one of mutual financial benefit, rather than "control".)

But what will help those more worried than I?? Maybe some signed disclaimer form at the start of the punt? (Not sure it would help much, but might make a pleasant memento of the experience.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you should do the checks on girls as if you were employing them. If they are in the country legally and can legally work, then the chance is they are not trafficked. Keep a photocopy of their passsport and any visas or work permits. Ask Baroness Scotland how to do it!.

Then say what checks and records you are keeping in your adverts.

Make sure someone see em at start of each shift, and that they show no signs of abuse.

lastly, encourage girls to work for other agencies also. If they work for you and (say) sandys it will be difficult to say HOD is controlling them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The law says 'forced', 'coerced', 'threatened' etc so not sure where control comes in.

I keep wondering where I would keep my fat controller. Mustn't joke. I suppose us indies could display our bank accounts for you! I do my own tax return so would the latest statement for my tax account be enough?

Passport with birthplace in this country?

Still looking for where my controller would fit in - with my shoe collection, 3 wardrobes (well I keep changing size), lingerie chest x 2 or 3 I am not sure.

Joking aside everyone be careful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
With the laws on prostitution changing and all of us being guilty of not having a real clue what it means I just wanted to know what will make you feel comfortable to continue to punt.

It is not going to be illegal to punt, it is though going to be illegal to punt with a girl who is forced regardless of you declaring ignorance. So I just wanted some ideas. Please don't turn this into an Indi vs Parlour thread just want to know so that come 1st April I have not got to let go of 10 receptionists etc. There are men that want to be able to continue to see girls in the habit they are used to.

Now we currently check all the girls right to be in the country. I was thinking of perhaps having their details filed and on hand at all times. We currently operate 2 girls only with no maid present acting only as a booking agency, this will remain but I thought perhaps if each girl had a disclaimer that was signed by herself to show when the paper work was sorted at the start of each punt there would be sufficient evidence there to state that you were happy she was no forced.

We will of course ensure the girls status in the country, age etc but want to know if you can think of any more details that would make you feel more confident. I expect people will wait and see what happens to start but the Brothel Closure orders are already in force and no one has noticed. A number of raids were done and these were used but the clients present as usual were just asked to dress and leave. The girls details were collected, checked and then it was business as usual so I do wonder what will happen when this comes into force to.

We will remain open after all living off immoral earnings has always been illegal but we want to know what will make you feel safe, comfortable and in a position to trust that we are taking this seriously.

Firstly i like your responsible attitude, some others i know either dont know about 1/4 or are burying their heads in the sand.

Secondly having a disclaimer cant hurt, its better than not having one in my view. As you check the ladies immigration status that wont be an area that will be a problem so it will come down to what they say to the police as to what action they may take. My advice is the obvious which you have probably done, thoroughly brief everyone about 1/4 and ensure they clearly know what the new law means.

Thirdly as has been said by many including myself a blunt instrument called fear is whats really at play here. The intent is to scare punters away rather than mass arrests which require big resources which the police simply havent got, and i am happy to be corrected on this, but i havent heard extra resources have been given to them specifically for this. Where is the advertising campaign, and has anyone seen any of these posters, i dont use public toilets very often.

Fourthly if they are going to raid or close premises i assume it would be establishments like yourselves that have a profile, i hope it doesnt happen of course but if i were plod i would take the easy option and do that. This if it got a bit of publicity would terrify some more punters, and whether they get a result or not is not necessarily the point, the scaring of more punters would suit HH and her cronies just fine in my view.

I wish you luck and sincerly hope nothing happens and your left to get on offering the excellent service i know you do.;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
With the laws on prostitution changing and all of us being guilty of not having a real clue what it means I just wanted to know what will make you feel comfortable to continue to punt.

It is not going to be illegal to punt, it is though going to be illegal to punt with a girl who is forced regardless of you declaring ignorance. So I just wanted some ideas. Please don't turn this into an Indi vs Parlour thread just want to know so that come 1st April I have not got to let go of 10 receptionists etc. There are men that want to be able to continue to see girls in the habit they are used to.

Now we currently check all the girls right to be in the country. I was thinking of perhaps having their details filed and on hand at all times. We currently operate 2 girls only with no maid present acting only as a booking agency, this will remain but I thought perhaps if each girl had a disclaimer that was signed by herself to show when the paper work was sorted at the start of each punt there would be sufficient evidence there to state that you were happy she was no forced.

We will of course ensure the girls status in the country, age etc but want to know if you can think of any more details that would make you feel more confident. I expect people will wait and see what happens to start but the Brothel Closure orders are already in force and no one has noticed. A number of raids were done and these were used but the clients present as usual were just asked to dress and leave. The girls details were collected, checked and then it was business as usual so I do wonder what will happen when this comes into force to.

We will remain open after all living off immoral earnings has always been illegal but we want to know what will make you feel safe, comfortable and in a position to trust that we are taking this seriously.

Ive been staring at this thread and the other forum and too be honest, theres not alot more you can do. As long as your checking they are not here illegally and arent been pushed through the door by some Eastern eupean guy every morning.

We, punters, are taking it on faith that the girl we see isnt trafficed. And as long as the girls have been checked (which we are also assuming here since I dont know whether the agency/parlour IS actually checking them) then we hope we arent going to get arrested for being basically innocent. Mind you we also take it on faith that popular supermarkets arent selling us stolen goods. but how would we know?

If she wasnt coerced today then what about the next day?

If a girl I did a FR was found to be coerced will my FR be read out in court or be traced by the police?

But back to your question, the answer I keep come up with is always: nothing. since theres always a non-certainty.

The laws are focused on arresting me and its me whose going to take the risk. Unless someone comes up with a legal gaurantee where there are legally certified NON-coerced, nonforced escort. (A guess like a Gas-safe registered plumber) then theres nothing you can do.

I guess you put all your places on the ground floor so I can dive out the window if theres a raid ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Appreicate the thread thou.

But in the end, I knew punting was going to be risky. If I get caught, I get caught and I'll take the repercussions.

Ill still "try" and make sure shes not coerced but will never ever be gauranteed.

If I get caught and arrested then it would be my fault, not yours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
With the laws on prostitution changing and all of us being guilty of not having a real clue what it means I just wanted to know what will make you feel comfortable to continue to punt.

It is not going to be illegal to punt, it is though going to be illegal to punt with a girl who is forced regardless of you declaring ignorance. So I just wanted some ideas. Please don't turn this into an Indi vs Parlour thread just want to know so that come 1st April I have not got to let go of 10 receptionists etc. There are men that want to be able to continue to see girls in the habit they are used to.

Now we currently check all the girls right to be in the country. I was thinking of perhaps having their details filed and on hand at all times. We currently operate 2 girls only with no maid present acting only as a booking agency, this will remain but I thought perhaps if each girl had a disclaimer that was signed by herself to show when the paper work was sorted at the start of each punt there would be sufficient evidence there to state that you were happy she was no forced.

We will of course ensure the girls status in the country, age etc but want to know if you can think of any more details that would make you feel more confident. I expect people will wait and see what happens to start but the Brothel Closure orders are already in force and no one has noticed. A number of raids were done and these were used but the clients present as usual were just asked to dress and leave. The girls details were collected, checked and then it was business as usual so I do wonder what will happen when this comes into force to.

We will remain open after all living off immoral earnings has always been illegal but we want to know what will make you feel safe, comfortable and in a position to trust that we are taking this seriously.

As I have said before even without the new laws I would not want to visit any establishment that was found or known to have a lady working against her will and neither I am sure would 99% of punters, now with these new laws as well it would be commercial suicide for any establishment to not properly check the eligibility, legality and background etc. of every Lady associated with them to work here in UK be working of their own free will etc.

So visiting an existing establishment such as HOD that's well run, will for me be reassurance in itself, and it's more the long trip for me than the new laws that will stop me visiting the divine empire.

But whatever happens after 1st April don't let HH and co win carry on punting.

Incidentally the only time I heard a lady complain she did not want to be in a parlour was when she complained there were not enough clients that day and she wished she had not bothered to turn in:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a few ideas:

1. Have a photocopy of their passport incase the police come knocking.

2. When checking passports if they are out of date refuse the girl until they have a new one.

3. If they are from another country then make sure they have permission to be in the UK, phone up the immigration department with their details etc.

4. Keep all records in a well laid out folder that is easy to access incase anything happens, make sure you have copies.

5. Put up the odd sign or two stating that no girl is forced, coerced etc.

...erm something like that ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
With the laws on prostitution changing and all of us being guilty of not having a real clue what it means I just wanted to know what will make you feel comfortable to continue to punt.

It is not going to be illegal to punt, it is though going to be illegal to punt with a girl who is forced regardless of you declaring ignorance. So I just wanted some ideas. Please don't turn this into an Indi vs Parlour thread just want to know so that come 1st April I have not got to let go of 10 receptionists etc. There are men that want to be able to continue to see girls in the habit they are used to.

Now we currently check all the girls right to be in the country. I was thinking of perhaps having their details filed and on hand at all times. We currently operate 2 girls only with no maid present acting only as a booking agency, this will remain but I thought perhaps if each girl had a disclaimer that was signed by herself to show when the paper work was sorted at the start of each punt there would be sufficient evidence there to state that you were happy she was no forced.

We will of course ensure the girls status in the country, age etc but want to know if you can think of any more details that would make you feel more confident. I expect people will wait and see what happens to start but the Brothel Closure orders are already in force and no one has noticed. A number of raids were done and these were used but the clients present as usual were just asked to dress and leave. The girls details were collected, checked and then it was business as usual so I do wonder what will happen when this comes into force to.

We will remain open after all living off immoral earnings has always been illegal but we want to know what will make you feel safe, comfortable and in a position to trust that we are taking this seriously.

I think this is a very good thread.... with so many interesting points... and I am looking forward to reading the responding posts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good to hear Divine Is being responsible.

But lets be honest, how would punters or even parlour bosses know 100% If a lady was traffiked? Her "Boyfriend" might be running her, and unless the lady says something, or something dosn't feel right, or you hear something, you wouldn't know.

And the lady dosn't have to be foreign to actually be a victim of traffiking, we have homegrown pimps here too you know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are obviously things that you will do to protect your own position but you have asked "What would make you feel comfortable ?"

I will rely on my own research and gut feelings, but I understand that there are some people who are nervous about the new Act and its potential effect on them.

I can't really answer for them but I think that I would be more reassured by some sort of notice ( or "The House of Divine Pledge" );) to the effect that HoD have checked and verified that all its ladies are:

1. Over the age of 18.

2. UK resident or legally entitled to work in the UK.

3. Not trafficked.

4. Happy to work at HoD and not coerced or working under duress.

Having said that, I wouldn't actually do anything that I'm sure that you're not already doing now. I don't think that you're going to be able to do much to allay the fears of those people who are scared about the possible consequences to them of the new Act. I can't see that a notice on your website and/or at your flats is going to make any difference to them, any more than signed " Certificates of Non-Exploitation" will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There are obviously things that you will do to protect your own position but you have asked "What would make you feel comfortable ?"

I will rely on my own research and gut feelings, but I understand that there are some people who are nervous about the new Act and its potential effect on them.

I can't really answer for them but I think that I would be more reassured by some sort of notice ( or "The House of Divine Pledge" );) to the effect that HoD have checked and verified that all its ladies are:

1. Over the age of 18.

2. UK resident or legally entitled to work in the UK.

3. Not trafficked.

4. Happy to work at HoD and not coerced or working under duress.

Having said that, I wouldn't actually do anything that I'm sure that you're not already doing now. I don't think that you're going to be able to do much to allay the fears of those people who are scared about the possible consequences to them of the new Act. I can't see that a notice on your website and/or at your flats is going to make any difference to them, any more than signed " Certificates of Non-Exploitation" will.

Yes It would be nice If every lady was not traffiked In the Industry, but there Is a small percentage that are, can I ask how a parlour can guarantee each of their ladies are free from exploitation? The answer Is they can't, what about the hooker that works 5-6 days a week In parlours, while her bf plays Modern warfare2 all day every day?

And to the smug guys who only see Indys, as they must be doing It out of their own free will, don't be so sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What would make you feel comfortable ?

Hmmm, a repeal of the new law might do it.

To be honest, I don't think I'll feel too comfortable with anyone but an indie until we are 6 months down the line and we can judge for ourselves how the police and the courts are going to treat the new law.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few raids and charges brought in the first few weeks, just to test the water. I guess the election might distract from the govt putting pressure on the police to do that though.

DivineMK, the trouble is that, although I have a very high level of confidence that none of the girls at HoD are "forced", I am not sure the police do. I really don't want to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and get caught up in a load of mistaken, overenthusiastic policing. The fact that a successful prosecution might be a low probability doesn't mean that the preceding arrest and wrongful charges wouldn't wreck my life anyway.

Probably not what you want to hear for the short time. I am pretty confident that the effect on the business in the medium to long term won't be noticeable, as everyone gets used to operating post (probably unenforceable) new law.

Whatever, you have my best wishes for your responsible approach to the upcoming change.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes It would be nice If every lady was not traffiked In the Industry, but there Is a small percentage that are, can I ask how a parlour can guarantee each of their ladies are free from exploitation? The answer Is they can't, what about the hooker that works 5-6 days a week In parlours, while her bf plays Modern warfare2 all day every day?

And to the smug guys who only see Indys, as they must be doing It out of their own free will, don't be so sure.

There is absolutely nothing that a parlour can do to guarantee that each of their ladies are free from exploitation. If the parlour owners can't - then how are we expected to do so ?

By itself I don't think that the fact that a girl works 5-6 days a week in parlours whilst her bf plays Modern Warfare 2 all day every day, constitutes "exploitative conduct". I do hope that I'm not proved wrong on that one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, you're a greedy little foreign girl making more money than you ever dreamed of in London. You are here illegally. There is a raid and the police take you down to the station. They ask if you are trafficked.

You have a choice, admit you're an illegal alien and get sent home on the next plane- without the chance to get your money stash. Or say "Me frightened, me trafficked" and get residency, a social worker, a free council flat and Benefits.

And some poor fool you never met before gets thrown into jail on your word.

Sorry, I'm turning into a Sun Reader this morning apparently.

Until a few guys get caught and test the law as to how far we need to go to be sure the girl is not trafficked, we are all under a cloud.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about a sworm affidavit from a commissioner of oaths from each girl? That should stop the police in their tracks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you go to a Chemists, you will see on the walls, a signed certificate showing that the Chemist concerned is a member of the Royal Pharmaceutical Society, I think perhaps it would be best if you had each girl sign a sworn affadavit that she was on the game of her own free will and that she was not trafficked, coerced or forced in any way - you can then frame the affidavits and then display them in the hallway so that everyone can see that the girls are working of their own free will.

I think the practical effect of the new law is that the numbers of English girls will increase whilst parlours and brothels will start to shun East European girls - out of fear that they may be trafficked.

Edited by Matium
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the practical effect of the new law is that the numbers of English girls will increase whilst parlours and brothels will start to shun East European girls - out of fear that they may be trafficked.

Why just EE girls? Surely all foreign girls would be viewed with suspicion.

I wonder if it will be the parlours that take the lead in shunning foreign girls or will it be the punters? Would parlours want to sack a popular girl just because she is from Fannystan? I doubt it. But if the punters don't book her, then she's as much use as an ashtray on a bike. This would be a shame because some of these foreign girls are excellent. In fact, about half of the girls in my top ten are from abroad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What does make my feel more comfortable is the likes of people like Divine who are doing their utmost to prove to themselves that the girl are there freely.

Theoretically it would be safer for a punter to go to HOD than an independent, as you wouldn't have any proof of no coercion with an independent.

If you are going to keep such records please register under the Data Protection Act, so there is nothing they can get you on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You have a choice, admit you're an illegal alien and get sent home on the next plane- without the chance to get your money stash. Or say "Me frightened, me trafficked" and get residency, a social worker, a free council flat and Benefits.

.

Hi Lessingham,

I'd not considered this scenario. Have there been examples where this has happened?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, you're a greedy little foreign girl making more money than you ever dreamed of in London. You are here illegally. There is a raid and the police take you down to the station. They ask if you are trafficked.

You have a choice, admit you're an illegal alien and get sent home on the next plane- without the chance to get your money stash. Or say "Me frightened, me trafficked" and get residency, a social worker, a free council flat and Benefits.

And some poor fool you never met before gets thrown into jail on your word.

Sorry, I'm turning into a Sun Reader this morning apparently.

Until a few guys get caught and test the law as to how far we need to go to be sure the girl is not trafficked, we are all under a cloud.

The new law has nothing whatsoever to do with "trafficking" or being an illegal immigrant (or any classification of immigrant, or otherwise, for that matter), there is no mention in the new law of the word "trafficked" and the new law relates to a prostitute, ANY prostitute.

Whilst being a "trafficked" prostitute might increase the chances of her/him being forced etc. (which is what the new law is actually about) it does not follow that all "trafficked" prostitutes are forced etc. but that depends on how the new will be interpreted of course. Moreover whilst not being a "trafficked" prostitute might reduce the chances of her/him being forced etc. it does not follow that all non-trafficked prostitutes are not forced etc. Furthermore a prostitute does not have to be an immigrant (illegal or otherwise) in order to be "trafficked".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Theoretically it would be safer for a punter to go to HOD than an independent, as you wouldn't have any proof of no coercion with an independent.

As you say "Theoretically", the only problem is that a negative cannot be proved, just because it can't be found does not prove that it does not exist, just that it can't currently be found. It doesn't matter how "stridently" a statement regarding "No force, coercion etc." is worded (as a matter of interest we do not currently know how the new law will be interpreted so the statement will be baseless), if a prostitute is found to be "coerced, forced etc." then the statement will be as much use as a T&C disclaimer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now