Nicholas Name

Legal advice request

17 posts in this topic

I would very much welcome some informed legal advice regarding the new law.

If I were to find myself caught up in a raid, what would be the appropriate response to ensure that I neither incriminated myself, nor inadvertently accepted a caution in lieu of a formal charge?

I assume that I might need to give my name, DOB and address details, but beyond that, am I obliged to give any further information? Would it just be case of replying 'no comment' to any question up until the point either a formal charge was made or that I was released?

While supporting the police in the execution of fair and well intentioned laws, I have no desire to be a pawn in a wider political game. Nor would I wish to open myself to charges of non co-operation or resisting arrest. In this case I would be prepared to go a far as necessary to determine that the police case had been made and due process followed.

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I would very much welcome some informed legal advice regarding the new law.

If I were to find myself caught up in a raid, what would be the appropriate response to ensure that I neither incriminated myself, nor inadvertently accepted a caution in lieu of a formal charge?

I assume that I might need to give my name, DOB and address details, but beyond that, am I obliged to give any further information? Would it just be case of replying 'no comment' to any question up until the point either a formal charge was made or that I was released?

While supporting the police in the execution of fair and well intentioned laws, I have no desire to be a pawn in a wider political game. Nor would I wish to open myself to charges of non co-operation or resisting arrest. In this case I would be prepared to go a far as necessary to determine that the police case had been made and due process followed.

Obviously you haven't spent time in a custody suite.

If you are caught in a raid and the police believe you have committed an offence they will arrest you and caution you. You will then be taken to a police station where you will be entitled to free legal advice. You can call your own legal rep or take advantage of a duty solicitor. You will then be interviewed on tape or video and a decision make about the offence you are charged with. Silverado has explained at some length about accepting a caution. Remember if you do so you are a criminal; your fingerprints/DNA will be held on file and you will have a police record. In most cases where you are arrested you will be bailed for further enquiries to take place and have to report back to the police station at some later date. If you want to see what a custody suite is like watch "Road Wars" or any similar fly-on-the-wall programme.

If you aren't arrested the police may ask you for a statement relating to your presence on the premises. I would suggest you comply with this. Don't under any circumstances give false details as this in itself constitutes an offence. If you don't assist you could find yourself in court as a witness anyway; you can be summoned irrespective of whether you give a statement or not.

Some punters have given statements in the past - this makes interesting reading

http://www.thelbb.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,39825.msg334295.html#msg334295

http://www.thelbb.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,42810.0.html

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Have a look at this thread from last month titled "What to say ?"

http://www.punternet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28281

I had the following to say then but I'll have a think to see if I've got anything to add:

"As we all know it is not illegal for a punter to visit a WG at a flat or brothel. He commits no crime.

Anecdotal evidence would suggest that if a punter is caught up in a raid, in most cases he will be asked to get dressed and leave - nothing more. In some cases names and addresses are taken.

Punters are not good prosecution witnesses in brothel/ controlling cases. They have their own interests to protect. They can be unhelpful and hostile witnesses. The police are well aware of this and in most cases will not follow up with the punters. During the few years that I have been on this forum and the previous one I have only come across a couple of cases where the Police have later contacted punters, and neither case involved evidence being given in court.

It is an offence to give a false name and address to the Police and they take a dim view of it. You are inviting trouble if found out.

If you are merely a witness then I doubt that the Police will ask you to verify your identity. If you see another punter give his name and address and then leave without verification then it may be tempting to give false details. That is up to the individual concerned, but bare in mind that if your car is parked a few doors up they may already have your registration number.

If the Police are considering prosecuting under the new section 53A (Paying for sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force) then I doubt that they will let you leave the place without your either being under arrest or verifying your details. More likely you will be arrested.

My advice is to park your car in the next street well away from the premises. In the very unlikely event that the premises are raided whilst you are there I would get dressed quickly, don't ask for your money back, don't get gobby with the Police (they don't like that), don't give false details (they definitely don't like that) and when you walk out keep your head down in case there are photographers, take your jacket off ready to put over your head :D. Don't walk to your car - go the opposite direction, and go and get it back later.

If the Police ask you any questions say that you've only come for a massage and nothing else. Any more question....."No comment".

At that stage you are either leaving quietly or worst case...under arrest. "

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I don't think that anyone can give a definitive answer as to what to do and say if caught up in a brothel raid because so much depends on the individual circumstances of the case and the motives of the Police. If your sitting in the lounge waiting for a girl then you're obviously at less risk of arrest than the guy caught having sex.

There are some posters on the board who believe that the Police will now have a purge and close down all brothels and in doing so will as a matter of policy arrest all punters in the brothel under the new section 53A. I don't think that's going to happen.

Under section 24 PACE 1984, to make an arrest the Police need reasonable grounds to suspect that an offence has been committed or is about to be committed. It's a little more complicated than that but that's the general gist of it. I can see that a general policy of arresting all punters (without prior reasonable grounds of suspicion) will lead to claims of wrongful arrest.

The first thing that I would say is that if you are caught in a raid the Police are not your friend. Do not believe a word that they say. They have their own agenda - and it is different from yours.

I want to get out of the brothel as quickly as I can and preferably without having given my name and address.

They may engage you in some conversation to find out what you are doing there and to check if you are involved in the management of the brothel. They may want to see what information you have in relation to the brothel itself. They could ask you for a statement for the purposes of prosecuting the brothel owners. If you do this - will you be incriminating yourself? They don't need your statement to prosecute. They will already have this: - surveillance information, evidence from "test purchase officers", financial records, cash and other items found at the premises.

Prior to 1 April I would have answered their questions but in a vague and unhelpful way on the basis that they had no possible offence with which to arrest me.

Now if asked, I think that I'm only going to say " I only came for a massage, and nothing else". If they ask any further questions then I'm going to say " No comment without seeing my solicitor".

If arrested for the new section 53A offence and taken to the station then I would ask to see the free Duty Solicitor or your own solicitor.

During the interview they are obviously looking for you to incriminate yourself and admit "payment or promise of payment" and discussion of "sexual services". So as far as possible you want to get across that you never paid or got around to discussing or promising payment, or the sexual services offered. That may be difficult if your actually caught in the middle of sex, with your money now in her purse.

I would also want to get across in any interview how relaxed, happy and friendly the girl was. The personal information that she gave you: how much she loved London etc (assuming she's foreign), the fact that she said she didn't have a boyfriend, enjoyed the job, loved shopping in London, had saved a lot of money etc.

For the purposes of the section it is irrelevant whether you are or ought to be aware that she is subject to exploitative conduct. Nevertheless the prosecution have to prove exploitative conduct and you want to give the CPS doubts as to whether they can do this.

I'm not going to accept a Caution. I would rather go to court. Nicholas -You can't inadvertently accept a Caution. You have to sign it as it is an admission of guilt. You agree to the terms of it. You can ask for time ( after being released on Police bail) to consider whether to accept a Caution. The Police may want to consult with the CPS before offering you a Caution.

If you're in a "sensitive" job then it may be worthwhile altering your job description (if asked) - whether you accept a Caution or not.

When you get home print off a copy of any website, FR's, relevant postings on the various boards. They might be useful later. The owners may ask for them to be deleted.

If it goes to Court - get a solicitor.

These are just my rambling thoughts at this time of night. I haven't said much specifically relevant to the new section 53A offence because what you say or don't say depends on the circmstances of the case.

I've said on several occasions that I think that the CPS are going to want to use the section sparingly, your chances of getting arrested are minimal and even less of going to court.

Your biggest danger is giving the Police too much information. All you want to give them is enough to convince them that it's not worth their while wasting any further time with you and that their time would be better spent on the other guy(s) caught along with you.

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Thank you for your replies, particularly to Silverado for your views and explaining the way a Caution works.

I was framing my question in relation to section 53A, and as you say, so much would depend on circumstances, and whether any sexual act had demonstrably taken place.

Although I can well understand the temptation to accept a Caution (if it were offered), I would also choose to go to court. From what you say, as long as I did not sign the Caution, I would not be accepting it, and if the police wanted to proceed they would have to take me to court. The process beyond this relating to appeal depending on the outcome has I think already been covered.

I suppose that with a law like this based on a strict liability for a potential punter, it is difficult to know how it will be used, and the particular agenda of any agent in the process.

I have no reason to believe that I might happen, but if it did I feel better prepared.

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Are there any solicitors anyone can recomend up and down the country? It always pays to be prepared after all and would be helpfull for everyone, both girls, agency owners and clients.

From personal experience your solicitor can make a HUGE difference. In a seprate unrelated matter I was convinced by my duty solicitor that I should accept a caution, in thier words it was the fastest way for me to get out of the police station. Hindsight being the wonderfull thing it is there is NO WAY I should have taken the caution, not only was I not guilty but the police were about to release me anyway (I only accepted the caution so I could get out of the police station and return to care for my child).

In a more recent incident (still ongoing) if it hadnt of been by chance (the timing of the phone call) and the quick thinking of a good friend who had been through a similar situation I would have really been up the creek without a paddle. If you want someone other than the duty solicitor you need to know the name of the solicitor, they wont give you a list to choose from or a copy of yellow pages

The whole held in custody set up is designed to break you down. On both occasions I was held overnight and despite considering myself a strong charecter I was a broken woman by the end of it. Im not suggesting police will hold clients following arrest for long, its not in thier interest to do so (they dont have space) but if several are arrested it still takes time to interview and you could (in worst case situation) find yourself being held for several hours. The whole point about being held by the police is you have no idea how long they are going to hold you for (it has to be less than 24 without exceptional circumstances but thats little comfort at the time), so I can imagine with a duty solicitor a few might find themselves tempted to take the caution and run when in fact thier is no case to answer. I apologies in advance if I have just offended any duty solicitors, I speak only from my own limited experience, the simple fact remains that you dont know who your going to get with a duty solicitor, one might be great they next not so good, its a gamble in my eyes and just because you choose your own your still covered by legal aid.

When in custody you have the right to a solicitor and I would recomend anyone finding themselves in that situation use a trusted solicitor who has dealt with cases like yours before. I know thats difficult with the new law but someone that at least understands the industry and has an understanding of the new law (this means EVERYTHING). Ask to speak to them right away, the police wont tell you anything, its part of thier tactics IMO but your solicitor even if unable to attend for a few hours will be able to update you on whats happening and what the police are planning to do, e.g. they wont tell you how long before they interview you but they will give your solicitor an idea.

Just remember the police are NOT NOT NOT your friends. Dispite how friendly they may seem they are there to try and catch you out even trick you into saying things under advice you wouldnt. They didnt earn thier many nicknames without good reason

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Are there any solicitors anyone can recomend up and down the country? It always pays to be prepared after all and would be helpfull for everyone, both girls, agency owners and clients.

I very much doubt if any of my colleagues in practice would like their names/telephone numbers to feature on a list of WG friendly solicitors, but I'd warmly agree, with the suggestion. The duty solicitor is paid by the state, at a rediculously tight fisted rate, and he wants to do his duty as quickly as possible and get on to the next job or back to bed. Your own solicitor will charge for his time (tax allowable, of course, assuming you grind through self-assessment) but speaking to a person you know in the alien and threatening atmosphere of the nick will give you courage.

Never (in this field, certainly) accept a caution, is, IMHO a good rule to stick by.

Ladies will do each other a big favour if they quietly pass on to each other the names of solicitors who appear to be aware of the ins and outs of "life on the game"

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When in custody you have the right to a solicitor and I would recomend anyone finding themselves in that situation use a trusted solicitor who has dealt with cases like yours before. I know thats difficult with the new law but someone that at least understands the industry and has an understanding of the new law (this means EVERYTHING). Ask to speak to them right away, the police wont tell you anything, its part of thier tactics IMO but your solicitor even if unable to attend for a few hours will be able to update you on whats happening and what the police are planning to do, e.g. they wont tell you how long before they interview you but they will give your solicitor an idea.

Just remember the police are NOT NOT NOT your friends. Dispite how friendly they may seem they are there to try and catch you out even trick you into saying things under advice you wouldnt. They didnt earn thier many nicknames without good reason

Sorry to hear of your bad luck, Sasha.

I myself have always taken the view that I don't need anyone to help me out in these situations. I just keep my mouth zipped from arrest to release in the morning. Sometimes it can be good fun to make the custody suite run around like headless chickens in search of non allergenic soap, Kosher food on a Saturday morning or even a FULL copy of PACE rather than the single sheet they throw at you at the custody desk. Read PACE thoroughly and use the little bell to call them up at the desk for every reason you can. This police won't like you, but what the heck, they just took away your freedom, didn't they.

Never place your signature on anything, never admit to anything, always have amnesia for the duration.

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use the little bell to call them up at the desk for every reason you can. This police won't like you, but what the heck, they just took away your freedom, didn't they.

Despite the fact they are not meant to they do ignore the bell after a while :mad:. I was seperated from a 6 month old baby and held overnight, they wouldnt even allow me to make a call to check on his welfare, just kept fobbing me off with we will find out for you and never coming back. When I made the complaint formal the tapes of the custody suite which would have shown how distressed I had become miraculously got lost. They are bastards the lot of them, it would pay everyone to remember that, no matter how nice they might seem

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Despite the fact they are not meant to they do ignore the bell after a while :mad:. I was seperated from a 6 month old baby and held overnight, they wouldnt even allow me to make a call to check on his welfare, just kept fobbing me off with we will find out for you and never coming back. When I made the complaint formal the tapes of the custody suite which would have shown how distressed I had become miraculously got lost. They are bastards the lot of them, it would pay everyone to remember that, no matter how nice they might seem

Luckily your baby won't remember :P

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Plenty of good advice here but the big weapon for the police is publicity. Few will want to risk the publicity of going to court so quietly accepting a caution may appear the best option for those not planning to get a US visa or a CRB check

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Plenty of good advice here but the big weapon for the police is publicity. Few will want to risk the publicity of going to court so quietly accepting a caution may appear the best option for those not planning to get a US visa or a CRB check

The Police can issue details of Cautions to the Press - but normally don't bother.

The Police can issue all sorts of names - arrests, charges, convictions right down to people that they just only want to interview.

By accepting and signing a Caution you agree to the following:

1. I have admitted to committing the offence(s) shown above. A simple caution is not a criminal conviction, but I understand that details of the caution will be kept on police databases.

2. If new evidence comes to light suggesting that the offence(s) I have committed are more serious, you might still take legal action against me.

3. If there are any victims as a result of these offences, they might still take civil action against me and you might give my name and address to the victims so they can do this.

4. If I am charged with another offence and I go to court, you will tell the court that I have received this simple caution.

5. If I already work in a job which is included in the list of notifiable occupations (these are jobs where you are in a position of trust or responsibility, for example, teachers, care workers, taxi drivers, soldiers and doctors), you might tell my employer about this simple caution. (I can ask you for a copy of the full list of notifiable occupations.)

6. If I apply for certain jobs, either paid or unpaid, that need me to have a criminal records check (CRB check), you might give my new employer information about this simple caution. (CRB checks are needed for nearly all jobs where you work with children or vulnerable adults, as well as for other sensitive jobs involving a high level of trust.)

7. If the offence I have admitted is included in the Education (Prohibition from Teaching or Working with Children) Regulations 2003 (as amended), accepting this simple caution means I will not be allowed to do certain jobs which involve working with children. You have told me if this is the case. I will be committing an offence if I carry out (or try to carry out) any of those jobs. My name might be added to List 99 which is a list kept by the Department for Children, Schools and Families of people who are not allowed to carry out certain jobs involving children and young people. It may also be taken into account by the Independent Safeguarding Authority in reaching decisions about the suitability of persons to work with children or vulnerable adults, once the new Authority commences its work under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006.

8. If the offence I have admitted is a sexual offence, I understand that accepting this simple caution may mean that you will add my name to the Violent and Sex Offender Register and I will have to agree to certain conditions you explain to me. You have told me if this is the case and explained the conditions I need to agree to, and I agree to those conditions.

9. I understand that accepting this simple caution may mean that some countries will not allow me to live there permanently, and some may not allow me to visit (for example, on business, for a holiday or as a student).

**********************************************************

The Caution does have a space for the Offender's occupation to be added.

The list of Notifiable Occupations as well as including the obvious ones such as Police, Magistrates,Teachers Taxi-drivers etc does (amongst others) include:

Bingo Staff

All Royal Mail employees

Arts Therapists

Biomedical Scientists

Chiropodists

Clinical Scientists

Dieticians

Occupational Therapists

Physiotherapists

Speech and Language Therapists

Chartered Psychologists

Osteopaths

Chiropractor

Veterinary Surgeons

BT employees

Farriers

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The Police can issue details of Cautions to the Press - but normally don't bother.

The Police can issue all sorts of names - arrests, charges, convictions right down to people that they just only want to interview.

By accepting and signing a Caution you agree to the following:

1. I have admitted to committing the offence(s) shown above. A simple caution is not a criminal conviction, but I understand that details of the caution will be kept on police databases.

2. If new evidence comes to light suggesting that the offence(s) I have committed are more serious, you might still take legal action against me.

3. If there are any victims as a result of these offences, they might still take civil action against me and you might give my name and address to the victims so they can do this.

4. If I am charged with another offence and I go to court, you will tell the court that I have received this simple caution.

5. If I already work in a job which is included in the list of notifiable occupations (these are jobs where you are in a position of trust or responsibility, for example, teachers, care workers, taxi drivers, soldiers and doctors), you might tell my employer about this simple caution. (I can ask you for a copy of the full list of notifiable occupations.)

6. If I apply for certain jobs, either paid or unpaid, that need me to have a criminal records check (CRB check), you might give my new employer information about this simple caution. (CRB checks are needed for nearly all jobs where you work with children or vulnerable adults, as well as for other sensitive jobs involving a high level of trust.)

7. If the offence I have admitted is included in the Education (Prohibition from Teaching or Working with Children) Regulations 2003 (as amended), accepting this simple caution means I will not be allowed to do certain jobs which involve working with children. You have told me if this is the case. I will be committing an offence if I carry out (or try to carry out) any of those jobs. My name might be added to List 99 which is a list kept by the Department for Children, Schools and Families of people who are not allowed to carry out certain jobs involving children and young people. It may also be taken into account by the Independent Safeguarding Authority in reaching decisions about the suitability of persons to work with children or vulnerable adults, once the new Authority commences its work under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006.

8. If the offence I have admitted is a sexual offence, I understand that accepting this simple caution may mean that you will add my name to the Violent and Sex Offender Register and I will have to agree to certain conditions you explain to me. You have told me if this is the case and explained the conditions I need to agree to, and I agree to those conditions.

9. I understand that accepting this simple caution may mean that some countries will not allow me to live there permanently, and some may not allow me to visit (for example, on business, for a holiday or as a student).

**********************************************************

The Caution does have a space for the Offender's occupation to be added.

The list of Notifiable Occupations as well as including the obvious ones such as Police, Magistrates,Teachers Taxi-drivers etc does (amongst others) include:

Bingo Staff

All Royal Mail employees

Arts Therapists

Biomedical Scientists

Chiropodists

Clinical Scientists

Dieticians

Occupational Therapists

Physiotherapists

Speech and Language Therapists

Chartered Psychologists

Osteopaths

Chiropractor

Veterinary Surgeons

BT employees

Farriers

#

Silverado . Many thanks for putting all the time and effort ,in explaining in simpler language ,this complex law ..

Very much apreciated .

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.........

8. If the offence I have admitted is a sexual offence, I understand that accepting this simple caution may mean that you will add my name to the Violent and Sex Offender Register and I will have to agree to certain conditions you explain to me. You have told me if this is the case and explained the conditions I need to agree to, and I agree to those conditions.

.........The Caution does have a space for the Offender's occupation to be added. The list of Notifiable Occupations as well as including the obvious ones such as Police, Magistrates,Teachers Taxi-drivers etc does (amongst others) include:

Bingo Staff

............

So, does this mean that the punter acceptinn a caution for having sex with a prosotitute who was for forced etc might be put on the Sex Offenders' Register? I assume not, since anyone convicted at court would not be put on the Register..... but this seems a bit unclear in context.

& FFS why are bingo staff a Notifiable Occupation when e.g. bookmakers aren't?

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& FFS why are bingo staff a Notifiable Occupation when e.g. bookmakers aren't?

It has something to do with two fat ladies :eek::confused:

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So, does this mean that the punter acceptinn a caution for having sex with a prosotitute who was for forced etc might be put on the Sex Offenders' Register? I assume not, since anyone convicted at court would not be put on the Register..... but this seems a bit unclear in context.

& FFS why are bingo staff a Notifiable Occupation when e.g. bookmakers aren't?

No. The new section 53A offence is not one of the relevant offences for the Sex Offenders Register. They primarily relate to rape, sexual assault and offences involving children.

The ones I have listed are some of the Category 2 occupations subject to the "relevance test". I see no reason why bookmakers should not be told if an employee has a conviction for theft ( which would be relevant) when a bingo operator would be so notified. Seems strange.

Here's the list of similar occupations:

1. Casino Staff

Casino Dealers

Casino Croupiers

Casino Cashiers

Casino Inspectors/Pit bosses

Casino Security officers

Casino Supervisors

Casino Managers

Casino Executives

Directors of Casino Companies

2. Bingo Staff

Directors of Bingo Companies

Bingo Managers

3. Gaming machine staff

Sellers/Suppliers of Gaming Machines

4. Lottery Staff

Lottery Promoters

Directors of External Lottery Manager companies

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Fortunately my occuption is retired.

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