danceswithwolves

The end of sex for sale in England!?

44 posts in this topic

I was having an interesting conversation with a highly intelligent and sensible woman who helps to run one of London's oldest and most respected 'houses' - and she believes that the police (with or without instruction from government) are currently embarking on a campaign to close down and/or restrict anyone dealing in sex for money. This is she thinks is starting with parlours and will later move on to agencies.

Personally I have no idea whether this is a true reflection of what is going on - but I am sure that Harriet Harman would be very pleased if this were indeed the case!

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I was having an interesting conversation with a highly intelligent and sensible woman who helps to run one of London's oldest and most respected 'houses' - and she believes that the police (with or without instruction from government) are currently embarking on a campaign to close down and/or restrict anyone dealing in sex for money. This is she thinks is starting with parlours and will later move on to agencies.

Personally I have no idea whether this is a true reflection of what is going on - but I am sure that Harriet Harman would be very pleased if this were indeed the case!

I guess it is the same as anything this Goverment wants, just like Global warming if enough people believe it then it is true.

Perhaps there will be some changes but with all the scare mongering and misunderstandings of the law the client will have done the job already saving the police a lot of trouble.

There is no difference really as I see it to the intelligent and informed client. It has always been illegal to run a brothel, the police have always known where brothels are and can close them on a heart beat. the client that respect himself and we have heard lots of cases of this will walk away from a punt he sees is not quite right. Many clients have rung crime stoppers to report fears of underage or forced girls, some clients have even took it upon themselves to rescue girls. I admit a lot of clients will no longer rescue a girl but I bet there will be a lot calling crime stoppers anonymously.

Think it is a case of calm down and carry on. All brothels/parlours/agencies know the risks they take. They can still take this risk without it affecting the clients liberty. This is about forced girls. So Calm down and carry on.

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I dont believe that the police, of thier own volition, would be on a mission to close down all sex for sale activities. What would be in it for them ?

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I dont believe that the police, of thier own volition, would be on a mission to close down all sex for sale activities. What would be in it for them ?

More importantly, where would they then get their jollies ?

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More importantly, where would they then get their jollies ?

There are plenty of independents around who aren't pimped. Nothing the police can do about them is there?

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There are plenty of independents around who aren't pimped. Nothing the police can do about them is there?

Perhaps they should form a trade association, all sign up and be registered like Corgi plumbers.

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Perhaps they should form a trade association, all sign up and be registered like Corgi plumbers.

You'd need a regulator to ensure that they are truly independent etc. Ofpros anyone? :mad:

B

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And what about the poor punter, many of us (are encouraged to) attend parlours, call agency's, book escorts, should we not run our own union!.

OFSTED

Only For Sex Treatment Each Day.

:mad::D:D

(Sorry to make fun of such a serious subject)

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There is no difference really as I see it to the intelligent and informed client. It has always been illegal to run a brothel, the police have always known where brothels are and can close them on a heart beat.

<snip>

Think it is a case of calm down and carry on. All brothels/parlours/agencies know the risks they take. They can still take this risk without it affecting the clients liberty

But what is new is that the Punter is now assuming some of the risk, and we have already seen that arrests have taken place, without knowing the full particulars. Hopefully it is not the end, but it may take some time for many punters to adjust to the new climate.

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There are plenty of independents around who aren't pimped. Nothing the police can do about them is there?

The nub of the problem, and where the new legislation is super cunning, is that the punter can not know for certain if the lady is pimped, coerced, deceived, exploited, etc. Even the most self-opinionated and charasmatic of ladies who post on here, who you might think no one would dare put the bite on, you can have no idea what is going on behind the scenes in their personal and business lives. & as has been set out in the Legalities section, a hapless punter under caution, gains no security or comfort from the word of the lady, gained beforehand, that she is working of her own free will. I dont know,maybe it is time the punter felt a bit of the heat for a change, but it would be nice to have a least a sporting chance in this game of illicit pleasures.

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the punter can not know for certain if the lady is pimped, coerced, deceived, exploited, etc.

Or even how those words will be interpreted by the Magistrate(s), which logically makes it impossible for the lady to know, let alone the punter.

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Here we go again.

The complete and utter end of paid sex!:D

Something that has never happened in the entire history of the world, but for some reason this wretched woman, who will be out of office within weeks, is going to achieve it! :mad::rolleyes::P

You really couldn't make it up.

If we're all still here in 10, 20, even 100 years I will bet anyone anything they care to name that paid sex will still be easily available!

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If we're all still here in 10, 20, even 100 years I will bet anyone anything they care to name that paid sex will still be easily available!

I wouldn't imagine anyone doubts that, but short term there may be a few hurdles to get over and hoops to jump through, I mean no one actually wants a criminal record do they ?

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Or even how those words will be interpreted by the Magistrate(s), which logically makes it impossible for the lady to know, let alone the punter.

I think the general consensus is, God forbid any of us having to find out.:mad:

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guestspeaker is on point I reckon. There is concern that the new legislation is in a major sense 'unfair' since not only do the punters have little means of knowing for sure that the lady works of her own free will (or whatever words would properly embrace the thrust of the legislation), the ladies themselves may not be entirely sure either as Sasfan points out.

(Pausing here, conversations I've had with others here etc. lead me to the view that merely being monetarily indebted 'to a difficult degree' to this or that party would not incline the CPS to infer that the lady was acting against her will unless that third party was itself tinged with unlawfulness.)

The new legislation is written to provoke terror. To an extent is has achieved that aim. But to the extent that it is intended to prevent the exploitation of women, I truly believe it will fail utterly even in the short term and merely attempts to bolster, in a way shorn of any intellectual validity, pre-existing legislation.

So good try Harriet but --------enjoy your retirement from politics!

Uncle Pokey

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I dont believe that the police, of thier own volition, would be on a mission to close down all sex for sale activities. What would be in it for them ?

Exactly. The police simply do not have the time.

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I was having an interesting conversation with a highly intelligent and sensible woman who helps to run one of London's oldest and most respected 'houses' - and she believes that the police (with or without instruction from government) are currently embarking on a campaign to close down and/or restrict anyone dealing in sex for money. This is she thinks is starting with parlours and will later move on to agencies.

Personally I have no idea whether this is a true reflection of what is going on - but I am sure that Harriet Harman would be very pleased if this were indeed the case!

This does seem to be a bit light on facts, did she give any reasons for suspecting this? Has she heard of an increase in brothel raids recently?

A few things we do know...

HH and the home office have been petty vocal with their condemnation of this industry and have introduced new legislation to criminalise punters paying (or promising to pay) for the sexual services of forced/coerced/deceived girls. This has been brought in to "discourage the demand for sexual services" and, they hope, reduce trafficking and exploitation as a result. They also seem to be pushing for a ban on most forms of advertising.

The met police have set up a new command called SCD9 to combat human exploitation/trafficking, although this isn't really new, more a bringing together of a few existing commands and a re-branding.

This new command has conducted at least one brothel raid in east london and arrested three punters under the new law.

They have also raided a number of the walk-ups in Soho and Shepherd Market, also arresting punters, but these don't seem to have attracted any press coverage as yet.

We don't know much more about the places raided. The police have always had the power to raid brothels, but have tended to concentrate their efforts on those which they suspect have forced girls or where other illegal/antisocial activities are taking place.

It is probably safe to assume that HH and the home office will be putting some pressure on this command to actually enforce the new legislation and the only effective way they have of doing that is through brothel raids. They don't seem to have any new resource to conduct these raids though, so I don't see how they can conduct many more than they do already.

The truth is we still don't know what the police are going to do but I suspect they will still concentrate on the more dodgy establishments, with the only difference being that they will try to catch as many punters under the new law as they can, and hope this scares more punters away.

As long as you were always a discerning customer and avoided such establishments, you probably have nothing to worry about. My only fear at the moment is that the police think it's ok, based on the CPS guidelines, to arrest any punter caught in a brothel regardless of whether they have any reason to suspect the girls are forced... but I could be wrong and I think you would have a strong case for unlawful arrest.

I suspect the Soho and Shepherd Market walk-ups' days might be numbered but the end of sex for sale in Engalnd? no chance

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The end of sex for sale in England!?

And Wales.  ‏  ‏  ‏  

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The met police have set up a new command called SCD9 to combat human exploitation/trafficking, although this isn't really new, more a bringing together of a few existing commands and a re-branding.

This new command has conducted at least one brothel raid in east london and arrested three punters under the new law.

They have also raided a number of the walk-ups in Soho and Shepherd Market, also arresting punters, but these don't seem to have attracted any press coverage as yet.

The new Unit first started operating on 1 April, the Newham brothel was raided that afternoon and the Press Release was issued that evening referring to 4 arrests including the fact that a 35 year old man accepted a Caution. No mention of the others and in particular as to whether they were released without charge or bailed to return at a later date.

According to a couple of posts on the Soho Walk-Up thread (including one from a new poster with a vivid imagination and a complete lack of understanding of the law) there has been an increased Police presence in Soho with raids. It just seems very strange that the Police made no mention of these in their Press Release :eek:.

As for the OP's conversation with the lady who helps out in the brothel - I can't say that I agree with any of what she says. It all seems nonsense to me :P.

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'Due Diligence' will not matter. The question of whether she was or was not controlled for gain will be a matter of fact and the client's mens rea will be irrelevant, though it might be adduced as additional evidence.

Of course if you accept a caution then they don't have to prove a case.

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right, off to the continent then....very civilised there....am more of a sensual massage with HE myself, how will that work!!!

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The question of whether she was or was not controlled for gain will be a matter of fact and the client's mens rea will be irrelevant,

Force, threats (whether or not relating to violence), any other form of coercion, or any form of deception, but not "controlled for gain", it can be argued that "force, threats (whether or not relating to violence), any other form of coercion, or any form of deception" is a definition/interpretation of "controlled for gain", but the term ""controlled for gain" does not appear in the new legislation, it did appear in an early draft but was replaced with "force, threats (whether or not relating to violence), any other form of coercion, or any form of deception".

Ironically if the police were to prove that a prostitute was subject to "force, threats (whether or not relating to violence), any other form of coercion, or any form of deception" and they decide to charge the person involved, then they would be left, physical violence acts notwithstanding, with little choice but to do so under Sections 53. (Controlling prostitution for gain) and/or Section 52 (Causing or inciting prostitution for gain) of SOA 2003, neither of which contain any of the terms/words "force, threats (whether or not relating to violence), any other form of coercion, or any form of deception".

And even more ironically, if that is possible, neither charges would be "strict liability" and could be tried by a Judge and jury, it's a funny old world.

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Here we go again.

The complete and utter end of paid sex!:eek:

Something that has never happened in the entire history of the world, but for some reason this wretched woman, who will be out of office within weeks, is going to achieve it! :eek::rolleyes::P

You really couldn't make it up.

If we're all still here in 10, 20, even 100 years I will bet anyone anything they care to name that paid sex will still be easily available!

NIK, drugs are illegal, so is talking on your mobile phone while driving, the police can't enforce those laws so what chance do they have trying to stop prostitution that has gone on since time began. :o

I expect there will be a few "test cases", it will be interesting to see the outcome, personally I will carry on punting as I have done for over 25 years, I am sure you feel the same.

Not too sure that Ms Harman will be out of office next month but I sincerely hope so. ;)

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