starman

New Dutch Laws

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Prostitutes have to be at least 21 years of age.

Prostitutes will have to register in a national register. Upon registration, an interview has to be conducted with each prostitute concerning the risks of the business, health care and assistance, social security, insurance and possibilities to leave the world of prostitution

Registered prostitutes will receive a pass with their picture and registration number (but without their name).

Clients have to check whether they are dealing with a legal prostitute by means of the pass. It is the intention that clients can establish via the Internet whether the registration number advertised by the prostitute actually exists.

Punishment of violations:

Prostitute without registration or working in a brothel without a licence: A fine of at most 380 euros

Clients who visit unregistered prostitutes or unlicensed brothels: A fine of at most 7,600 euros

or a term of imprisonment of at most 6 months

Sex business without a licence or violation of the statutory rules: offence (guilt): a fine of at most 18,500 euros or a term of imprisonment of at most 6 months

Proposal from the ministry of justice:

http://english.justitie.nl/currenttopics/pressreleases/archives-2010/100415legal-prostitutes-to-be-at-least-21-years-of-age.aspx?cp=35&cs=1578

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sounds sensible

are brothels legal there?

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Brothels have been legal in Amsterdam since the year 2000.

This is not law yet, it's in the stage of merely being a proposal by an interim government that may even soon be out after the coalition government dissolved.

Although it's sensible in principle the practical difficulty is that the 18-20 year olds currently working may be forced underground to be exploited by pimps, and local punters may know ladies, like Nelly from Ignatzmice fame who is 20 apparently, who are under 21 but are reputed to be good, reliable performers.

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Many ladies will not want to be on a government register. This is very repressive legislation.

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Many ladies will not want to be on a government register. This is very repressive legislation.

This is not repressive this is progress...

Prostitution should be regulated, this will make it harder for the pimps to hide and help bring prostitution out of the seedy world it is currently seen to be in by some people.

JDM

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"sensible"??

it all depends what you mean by prostitution and I can see some very grey areas.

For example this which I no reason to doubt was recounted by wife of a mate during discussion on lifestyles and doing what it takes etc.

Back in immediate post student days there was a group of girlfriends in London. One had married at Uni and was separated with young child. She had a lot on her plate but managed to keep an above ave flat. she later disclosed to my friend that she was actually "Kept". It was early70s, the start of the rich Saudi period; they had met thru her work and she had accepted his proposal to pay her rent in exchange for being available when he was in London

Clearly payment for sex, would she have to register??

The law is a ass whenever it steps into the bedroom. Deal with harm and leave life alone.

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This is not repressive this is progress...

Prostitution should be regulated, this will make it harder for the pimps to hide and help bring prostitution out of the seedy world it is currently seen to be in by some people.

JDM

There are just too many gradations of paid for sex.

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"sensible"??

it all depends what you mean by prostitution and I can see some very grey areas.

The law is a ass whenever it steps into the bedroom. Deal with harm and leave life alone.

Agree! I can see two big problems:

1) Define a prostitute? Who must register? First time she is given "a little present" afterwards? First time she asks for a little present before?

2) When registered whore meets Mr Right, or decides to emigrate, how long will her record be kept, and will it be accessible to be searched?

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I forget which, but one of the female scribblers in Grauniad, came up with an acronym BOAT; Bordering On A Tart.

She was commenting on the single ladies who enhance their lives by being available for invites to make up the numbers when an important visitor is in town. Money is far to crude a medium of exchange, but the present, the dinners the social invites have to be paid for.

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This is not repressive this is progress...

Prostitution should be regulated, this will make it harder for the pimps to hide and help bring prostitution out of the seedy world it is currently seen to be in by some people.

JDM

Would you as a student lawyer or teacher risk being labelled a prostitute? Once a prostitute in many peoples minds you are always a prostitute and not to be trsuted. Even if this scheme was discrete and secure, we all know how Government information is leaked and also potentially used by the state for screening.

Turkey runs a scheme wherby your id card is labelled prostitute. This ensures you will always work as a prostitute.

Much or the problems in Holland have been caused by the existing licensing laws not being implementd correctly, and the status quo of badly run criminal brothels to continue to run without letting new blood into the business.

A few Holland documents to read here, some in English.

http://www.wodc.nl/search.aspx?simpleSearch=prostituee&zoekknop=Zoek

Prostitution in the Netherlands since the lifting of the brothel ban - ob249a full text

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Prostitution should be regulated, this will make it harder for the pimps to hide and help bring prostitution out of the seedy world it is currently seen to be in by some people.

Agreed, however you really must take into account who is going to do the regulation? Over the last few years the "State" has proved itself to be wholly inadequate in the area of data privacy and control. Who will use the data? As I understand it Visas to many countries will be refused on grounds of prostitution. Who will "mis-use" the data? Insurance companies to mention but one.

It's a nice idea, but one that should be given a lot of thought in case it turns into a sledgehammer to crack a walnut, with more cons than pros (pun intended).

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and when the register leaks online?

the age thing is motivated in the same way that many (christian) countries have (or have had until recently) a higher age of consent for homosexual intercourse.

To give young people a chance to reconsider if they really want to do something so awful.

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It's repressive because it is the State deciding which adults another adult can choose to have consensual sex with. That's repression. Obviously.

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It's repressive because it is the State deciding which adults another adult can choose to have consensual sex with. That's repression. Obviously.

What nonsense Rockenroll - this is about paying for sex not poorly consensual sex - this is not remotely the same thing.

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What nonsense Rockenroll - this is about paying for sex not poorly consensual sex - this is not remotely the same thing.

Point is that sex is paid for in a huge variety of circumstances and for a huge variety of reasons. As is constantly made clear in UK, the application and interpretation of the law is very often at odds with the intent of the lawmakers (or a goodly numbers of those who were drummed through the "aye" lobby to vote it in).

Can someone please tell mw why a "prostitute" should be registered? why not bankers, journalists, newpaper columnists or religious leaders?

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Point is that sex is paid for in a huge variety of circumstances and for a huge variety of reasons. As is constantly made clear in UK, the application and interpretation of the law is very often at odds with the intent of the lawmakers (or a goodly numbers of those who were drummed through the "aye" lobby to vote it in).

Can someone please tell mw why a "prostitute" should be registered? why not bankers, journalists, newpaper columnists or religious leaders?

All businesses are regulated to some degree, this is to ensure employees are treated fairly, tax is paid, working conditions comply to health and safety requirements, etc etc etc. The Dutch approach to actually register the prostitutes is probably the best way to make it very difficult for the pimps to flourish as they do now. As each prostitute has to have an interview it would be very difficult for a pimp to get their prostitutes licensed if they were working against their will.

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I can see some value in registration for work in parlours, brothels, sex clubs, incall agencies etc; even street work or plying trade in public places. It would greatly diminish the power of pimps and managers in LEGITIMATE circumstances.

But all the groups that want to end prostitution at least pay lip service to "routes out" for the women. I cannot see many (if any of the women) I have met over the years going along with legally labelling themselves as "prostitutes".

In Holland the circs are somewhat different, the majority of the women in the sex clubs and windows are no longer Dutch. Registration actually would make sense as it would provide extra protection and once back in their home country with the proceeds, there is little to fear from a half cut civil servant leaving a disc on the train.

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What nonsense Rockenroll - this is about paying for sex not poorly consensual sex - this is not remotely the same thing.

Paid sex can be consensual. I thought it was clear from my post that this was the category I was talking about, apologies if that did not come over clearly.

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I can see some value in registration for work in parlours, brothels, sex clubs, incall agencies etc; even street work or plying trade in public places. It would greatly diminish the power of pimps and managers in LEGITIMATE circumstances.

But all the groups that want to end prostitution at least pay lip service to "routes out" for the women. I cannot see many (if any of the women) I have met over the years going along with legally labelling themselves as "prostitutes".

In Holland the circs are somewhat different, the majority of the women in the sex clubs and windows are no longer Dutch. Registration actually would make sense as it would provide extra protection and once back in their home country with the proceeds, there is little to fear from a half cut civil servant leaving a disc on the train.

And the reality is that as many women will not want to register, in practice the unregistered wgs will be driven even further underground. This is not a good thing. Asssociated crime will be more likely to flourish than in the absence of a registration system.

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At the end of the day, surely it is the voice of the women in the industry that should be given the most weight, whether for or against. We are all aware of the consequences of the application of "theory" by politicians to a problem the size of which they have no knowledge of (or deliberately massively inflate) and the range of realities of which are far beyond their ability to comprehend.

Judging from comments I recollect from the ECP or similar, I suspect that working girls would generally be against.

How would you feel if punters had to register on a national register in order to be allowed to visit parlours? You had to be of an age that the government believed was sufficient high that you were mature enough to understand the situation regardless of your maturity and experience, and this age would be higher than that required to marry, die for your country, have children, drink, be imprisoned etc . You would also have to be subjected to a lengthy interview which could well equate to the type of "education" that men and women in the street scene can be subjected to in this country. You would then be entitled to a pass with your photograph and registration number on which you would have to use every time you visited a parlour so that you could be checked out on the internet. I don't know about anyone else, but that would not appear attractive to me. I think I would be very tempted to go "underground" instead. I doubt if women in the industry, or considering entering it, would feel any different.

On the face of it, the proposal seems attractive but it could potentially well result in the industry being largely driven underground so making the position far worse for many of the women concerned.

I therefore hope that the Dutch Government will let those in the industry, i.e. the women, who know it well, and would have to bear the full consequences of well meaning, but possibly flawed legislation, have the final say in the matter.

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There will always be a stigma against girls who have/do work as prostitutes :rolleyes:

If a girl fucks her way through many many guys in "normal" life, she can largely keep it to herself, but when it's her job and so therefore obvious that she's had many sexual partners then she'll always be looked down at by mainstream society because it's viewed as bad for women to fuck around. Sterotypyes are hard to erase from society.

I used to speak with a girl i visited many times over several years in Amsterdam, and she said it does make things hard in her normal life because she couldn't admit to being a prostitute openly because even in Holland where it was made legal, it is still viewed very dimly by most. Trying for a normal job would be difficult because they want to know what you've been doing in your previous jobs, mortgage companies refuse or are reluctant to accept prostitute as a legitimate job, many things like these.

It may seem a good idea on the surface to have a registration scheme...but given how many corrupt people there are in ALL walks of life, including police officers, government officials etc etc..., then it's probably always going to have many more disadvantages than advantages.

I accept that this change is an attempt at doing something positive...but until humans evolve and attitudes change then it's always going to be difficult.

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Paid sex can be consensual

Paid sex IS consensual. All consensual means is based on mutual consent; ie. agreed by both parties. Or all parties if you're lucky.

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This is not repressive this is progress...

Prostitution should be regulated, this will make it harder for the pimps to hide and help bring prostitution out of the seedy world it is currently seen to be in by some people.

JDM

I've read quite a few historical documents over the years regarding prositution and I've come to the conclusion that very few prostitutes have been subjected to submitting to pimps in order that they can ply their trade - don't know whether it's the male fantasy to be a pimp which lends more credance than I think it's worth ? - women are quite capable of sorting their own 'stuff' when needs be, without the need for male supremecy.

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In the middle of reading Dan Cruickshank's "Secret History of Georgian London" - how the wages of sin shaped the capital.

The Bawd or ex-prostitue certainly seem to have provided the managerial class in that trade. And speculative property was where the value was invested and the trade took place, bit like the Agencies with girls in Buy to Lets today.

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Paid sex IS consensual. All consensual means is based on mutual consent; ie. agreed by both parties. Or all parties if you're lucky.

Not at all. If you are right there would be no sex slaves, and nobody believes that.

Paid/unpaid and consensual/non-consensual are two different concepts.

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