GlasgowGirl

From a legal point of view, what constitutes 'Sexual Services'?

15 posts in this topic

Having read with concern (and :D) at the recent action against non-trafficked , non-coerced and over 21 women working together in a co-operative , no 'control for gain' - simply sharing the rent (the thread 'judge praises model brothel') I'm wondering what actually constitutes 'Sexual Services'?

I used to work in a (strictly) massage and hr only place which had a different girl working every day mon-sun. Would this be classed as a 'brothel' if only hr was on offer?

This place used to charge £60 per half hour and £120 per hour for naturist (therapist naked) and hr only - NO touching or kissing , which is the average around here for 'everything'. Would (whoever investigates these things) see this as them offering the full service under the guise of "massage+hr" as the quoted prices were similar?

I guess what I'm trying to say is this - If different girls were working at the same place, would the erotic massage be legal? What is a 'sexual service'?

All thoughts welcome, but would especially appreciate thoughts from anyone who has experience/legal knowledge...

Thanks x

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One reason the recent bill which was to make illegal the purchase of sexual services was thrown out of the Scottish Parliament, was partly to do with the definition of what constitutes a sexual service - the term can encompass all sorts of activities, from buying someone dinner with the hope it will lead to a 'result' at the end of it, to offering horny phone chat.

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Having read with concern (and :eek:) at the recent action against non-trafficked , non-coerced and over 21 women working together in a co-operative , no 'control for gain' - simply sharing the rent (the thread 'judge praises model brothel') I'm wondering what actually constitutes 'Sexual Services'?

I used to work in a (strictly) massage and hr only place which had a different girl working every day mon-sun. Would this be classed as a 'brothel' if only hr was on offer?

This place used to charge £60 per half hour and £120 per hour for naturist (therapist naked) and hr only - NO touching or kissing , which is the average around here for 'everything'. Would (whoever investigates these things) see this as them offering the full service under the guise of "massage+hr" as the quoted prices were similar?

I guess what I'm trying to say is this - If different girls were working at the same place, would the erotic massage be legal? What is a 'sexual service'?

All thoughts welcome, but would especially appreciate thoughts from anyone who has experience/legal knowledge...

Thanks x

Basically it's anything that gets you off. Certainly HR is a sexual service - not sure how you could believe it wouldn't be. WS would also count, since although it doesn't do anything for me, the people who pay for it are presumably getting off on it; even though they don't cum.

Basically are you paying for the service to get off on it? Assuming the recipient is a hetero man would he want another man to perform the service? if not then you'd have to assume it's a sexual service.

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Although the basic principles of Scottish prostitution law are the same as in England & Wales ie. prostitution is not illegal, but brothels are -the Scottish statutes are different.

In England & Wales the massage and HR services you describe would amount to "sexual" services and the premises would be considered a brothel.

Not knowing the position in relation to Scottish law I can't give a definitive answer, but I see no reason why it should be any different. Melanie's post would suggest that I am probably right in making this assumption.

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Having read with concern (and :eek:) at the recent action against non-trafficked , non-coerced and over 21 women working together in a co-operative , no 'control for gain' - simply sharing the rent (the thread 'judge praises model brothel') I'm wondering what actually constitutes 'Sexual Services'?

I used to work in a (strictly) massage and hr only place which had a different girl working every day mon-sun. Would this be classed as a 'brothel' if only hr was on offer?

This place used to charge £60 per half hour and £120 per hour for naturist (therapist naked) and hr only - NO touching or kissing , which is the average around here for 'everything'. Would (whoever investigates these things) see this as them offering the full service under the guise of "massage+hr" as the quoted prices were similar?

I guess what I'm trying to say is this - If different girls were working at the same place, would the erotic massage be legal? What is a 'sexual service'?

All thoughts welcome, but would especially appreciate thoughts from anyone who has experience/legal knowledge...

Thanks x

Extract from the Sexual Offences Act 2003 :-

78 “Sexual”

For the purposes of this Part (except section 71), penetration, touching or any other activity is sexual if a reasonable person would consider that—

(a) whatever its circumstances or any person’s purpose in relation to it, it is because of its nature sexual, or

(:rolleyes: because of its nature it may be sexual and because of its circumstances or the purpose of any person in relation to it (or both) it is sexual.

79 Part 1: general interpretation

(1) The following apply for the purposes of this Part.

(2) Penetration is a continuing act from entry to withdrawal.

(3) References to a part of the body include references to a part surgically constructed (in particular, through gender reassignment surgery).

(4) “Image” means a moving or still image and includes an image produced by any means and, where the context permits, a three-dimensional image.

(5) References to an image of a person include references to an image of an imaginary person.

(6) “Mental disorder” has the meaning given by section 1 of the Mental Health Act 1983 (c. 20).

(7) References to observation (however expressed) are to observation whether direct or by looking at an image.

(8) Touching includes touching—

(a) with any part of the body,

(:D with anything else,

© through anything,

and in particular includes touching amounting to penetration.

(9) “Vagina” includes vulva.

(10) In relation to an animal, references to the vagina or anus include references to any similar part.

Section 71 is "Sexual activity in a public lavatory", quite why that is excluded I really don't know, but that is by the by. What Section 78 is saying is that if a reasonable person considers that an act, such as masturbation for example, is sexual, then that act is sexual, if you think that you are a reasonable person then just ask yourself this question "If I manipulate a penis to ejaculation is that a sexual act?", if the answer is yes then ask yourself this question "If I charge money for a sexual act, is that supplying a sexual service?". If you answer yes to both questions then you have your answer to one of your questions, and answers to all your other questions will logically be answered.

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Thanks for all your replies.

I thought it would be illegal , but was just checking. No fun ):

I just feel a bit strange sometimes working on my own, and would love to share a flat with another lady for security, and rent-sharing ONLY. No controlling of any kind, but I'm too scared we would get raided and charged with 'brothel-keeping'. >pictures about 15 police officers busting in with helmets etc etc< eeeek.

Does anyone know if there's any way around this at all? I don't want to be doing anything which could get me into trouble but surely they should pass a law which would make girls safer? For example, 2 ladies allowed to work from one place, and only investigate if any evidence of trafficking/coercion/drugs?

If there's a way to share without it being illegal, I would. But if not, guess i will have to continue working myself.

is employing a maid for security legal? (as long as they don't answer my phone, take appointments or provide any sexual services).

xxx

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is employing a maid for security legal? (as long as they don't answer my phone, take appointments or provide any sexual services).

Extract from the Crown Prosection Service site :-

Maids

When considering charging so-called "maids" (an individual who has assisted in running the brothel, such as a receptionist), and there is sufficient evidence, the public interest will usually mean the maid will be charged if their assistance is crucial to the operation of the brothel or they have been involved for a long period of time. If the assistance of the maid is minor or over a short period of time such as cleaning and tidying, a prosecution may not be necessary in the public interest.

The following models may provide a useful guide in assessing the involvement of the maid in assisting in the running of the brothel:

Minor Involvement: the maid is employed to just look after the woman or women supplying sexual services. She will keep the premises clean, buy provisions such as food and cleaning materials and ensure that items such as condoms, creams etc are available. She may receive calls from 'punters', provide the address to those wishing to attend and may answer the door. The maid will be paid by the woman or women on the basis of business.

Medium Involvement: This type of brothel will have a maid who is brought in to manage premises used by several women over the course of a week. The maids will differ and will be employed by the premises owner. The maid will not always know the women who work in the premises as they will also change daily. The maid will be paid a small sum by the premises owner and more by the women providing the services. The maids will vet 'punters' and receive telephone calls. Police intelligence suggests that the women employed in these brothels are mainly foreign nationals and incidents of trafficking in this type of premises are rising. Where trafficked victims and young women under 18 are supplying sexual services in these premises, arrest and prosecution of the maid is more likely to be considered.

Serious Crime Involvement: In this type of brothel, the controller or trafficker works on the premises. Women working in the brothel are often coerced, forced or trafficked and the maid / controller needs to maintain close supervision to limit their freedom and monitor their earnings and finances. Often these maids are actually the controller or trafficker and are committing other (additional) serious offences, e.g. false imprisonment / assault.

The CPS guidance applies to England and Wales, however I expect that the general principles will hold good North of the border, but in truth I don't actually know that.

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Thanks so much for your advice and guidance. I'm going to read everything I can find on that CPS site.

If I wasn't mistaken, I would think you were a lawyer! :eek:

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Extract from the Crown Prosection Service site :-

The CPS guidance applies to England and Wales, however I expect that the general principles will hold good North of the border, but in truth I don't actually know that.

An excellent reference point, well posted.

Th problem for WGs and punters is that the guidelines referenced are only that - the guidance that the CPS will use in deciding whether to prosecute. In this sense it is rather retrospective - you can't get a firm answer from it on whether some particular action in a grey area is legal or not - it's illegal if a court later decides it is. But the CPS stuff is a useful indication of whether it will get to court in the first place. i.e. sufficient evidence to secure a reasonable chance of conviction and sufficiently in the public interest to do so. Public interest being defined by the CPS - for instance, if the person is likely to get a conditional discharge the CPS might think it's a factor to be taken into account seeing as how court cases cost the public purse a lot of money. The CPS, as far as I know, doesn't get involved in whether it is right or wrong to have such a law in the first place.

If it sounds like shillyshallying, it is, but it's the fault of parliament for pushing through a shonky law. In defence of the CPS, the current director has broken records in publishing openly his opinions on such things, showing how he will decide the cases in areas of law that are so murky. There is usually no requirement for him to do so. In this respect it would be interesting to see Scotland take a similar line.

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one cynic said it even included buying soiled panties

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one cynic said it even included buying soiled panties

I'm sure it does, have you ever seen that site Ebare ?

Truly stomach turning stuff. :eek:

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one cynic said it even included buying soiled panties

That is one of those that can fall either way! The rag & bone man who just wants the panties, and any other items of fabric, can be sold them innocently, but the old goat who wanks off while sniffing the garment (PN's spell checker is so bourgeois! it doesn't know "wanks"!!) probably did get a "sexual service", IMHO, although I think it pretty unlikely that the Fiscal would waste his time on it.

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That is one of those that can fall either way! The rag & bone man who just wants the panties, and any other items of fabric, can be sold them innocently, but the old goat who wanks off while sniffing the garment (PN's spell checker is so bourgeois! it doesn't know "wanks"!!) probably did get a "sexual service", IMHO, although I think it pretty unlikely that the Fiscal would waste his time on it.

So what sexual service is she providing?

The mere act of selling them surely can't constitute a sexual service - especially if the punter does what he does (whether that be sniffing or wearing them) at a later date at home by himself?

I reckon that for it to constitute a "sexual service" she'd have to be physically present when he did the sniffing or wearing.

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I used to work in a (strictly) massage and hr only place which had a different girl working every day mon-sun. Would this be classed as a 'brothel' if only hr was on offer?

If the girls end the massage with hand relief then they are prostitutes and the premises would be a brothel ------ it is not a grey area. :D;)

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If I wasn't mistaken, I would think you were a lawyer! :D

Perhaps you're both "solicitors ". :D:D

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